WAR vs PLD HP values and EHP.

[Derza]

When are you ever setting at 0 stacks as WAR though? And why are you not counting the healing you just received from Inner Beast???

This is what I don't understand why people are comparing WAR and PLD this way. PLD has no self heals at all so it relies on incoming heals from the Mage so it needs this healing advantages to survive.

Yet when the WAR uses Inner Beast it is said to be at a disadvantage because it's heals are coming from Inner Beast instead of the mage??

Don't forget paladin has all the tanking cool downs and warrior has basically none. I think most people see inner beast as a way to compensate for paladin CD's not something to almost make defiance as good as shield oath.

[HiirNoivl]

Don't forget paladin has all the tanking cool downs and warrior has basically none. I think most people see inner beast as a way to compensate for paladin CD's not something to almost make defiance as good as shield oath.

What is your definition of "Tanking Cool Down"?

That's the thing. Of course, WAR looks gimp when your definition of "What is tanking" is so narrow.

[Derza]

What is your definition of "Tanking Cool Down"?

That's the thing. Of course, WAR looks gimp when your definition of "What is tanking" is so narrow.

I call tanking cooldowns anything that mitigates damage in some way either from damage reduction or healing. The warrior "tanking" cooldowns are blood bath, foresight (i think it was calculated to get about a 5% reduction in physical damage), featherfoot, inner beast, and storm's path(worthless). The only one of which helps with magic damage is Bloodbath and it is so laughable of a heal its hard to even count that ( vs bosses that auto attack for 1k damage and nuke for 2k+).

You can use Convalescence from GLD which stack with all your healing abilities - all of them -

Storm's Path heals you every 6 seconds, and you're using it constantly.

Another post full of misinformation. Convalescence helps with NONE of the warrior self heals - none of them -, get your facts straight before you throw out all these falsities . If you are using Storm's Path every 6 seconds you are for one gimping yourself if you are picking that over Storm's Eye and not using your emnity combo - for another hacking/or not using the full combo because with the global cooldown the best you could do is use it every 7-7.5 seconds.

[Lhun]

I call tanking cooldowns anything that mitigates damage in some way either from damage reduction or healing. The warrior "tanking" cooldowns are blood bath, foresight, featherfoot. The only one of which helps with magic damage is Bloodbath and it is so laughable of a heal its hard to even count that ( vs bosses that auto attack for 1k damage and nuke for 2k+).

Bloodbath heals you for 25% of the total damage you do over it's duration. This counts for auto attack, vengeance, abilities, crits, etc etc etc. Take the damage you do to anything, during it's duration, and take 25% of that. That's the health you gained, that was not required to be healed by a healer. That's not laughable, that's a LOT. It's the same adage with things like fracture. FRACTURE DOES AS MUCH DAMAGE AS BUTCHER'S BLOCK... but people don't realize it because they don't see the big shiny damage number.

I also didn't use featherfoot - that might change, however, but I feel that missing out on vengeance procs for more TP and bloodbath and potential crits (the often forgotten other bonus from wrath) is not worth it for increase chance to dodge (which you do a lot anyway).

[Derza]

Bloodbath heals you for 25% of the total damage you do over it's duration. This counts for auto attack, vengeance, abilities, crits, etc etc etc. Take the damage you do to anything, during it's duration, and take 25% of that. That's the health you gained, that was not required to be healed by a healer. That's not laughable, that's a LOT. It's the same adage with things like fracture. FRACTURE DOES AS MUCH DAMAGE AS BUTCHER'S BLOCK... but people don't realize it because they don't see the big shiny damage number.

I also didn't use featherfoot - that might change, however, but I feel that missing out on vengeance procs for more TP and bloodbath and potential crits (the often forgotten other bonus from wrath) is not worth it for increase chance to dodge (which you do a lot anyway).

bloodbath ends up being the same as about 1 cure every 30 secs. I'm not saying they do nothing... but compared to paladins it is laughable. Not sure why you think we parry/dodge a lot... in another post they did some testing and we have about a 9% chance to parry with 400 parry rating, and when you parry you take 22-24% reduced damage depending on your str(this equates to 2% damage reduction to PHYSICAL attacks and 0% to magic attacks), I'd guess dodge to be less than 9%. all these things you list work great in 4 man dungeons where you only have 1 healer and you can use your self heals to mitigate a good % of the incoming damage...

The problem is in 8 mans warrior % mitigation drops a lot(due to increase boss damage but the same warrior damage) where as paladins stays the same.

That is the real issue here and the flaw that warriors currently have. As has been stated in many other forum posts I believe that the defiance buff should have a passive +10% healing on it and inner beast could also stand to be made into an absorb or even a half absorb half heal - this would allow warriors to put an absorb shield up to prevent them from being 1 shot( turn 5 in coil ) and also keep inner beast from being a wasted heal due to it over healing or causing one of the healers heals to be overhealing.

[Hachiko]

Yet when the WAR uses Inner Beast it is said to be at a disadvantage because it's heals are coming from Inner Beast instead of the mage??

Because bosses don't just stop damage after they use a big hit.

Let's take Mountain Buster for example. It does baseline (without any CD's) ~4400 damage. and it comes with an auto attack that does ~850 damage. That's a total of 5250 damage. Following Mountain Buster he will generally attack once (sometimes twice).

So if we get a Mountain Buster + AA, and then another AA that puts us at ~6000 damage takenin a 5 second window.

A paladin in shield oath ONLY and NO COOLDOWNS will take 4800 damage, mitigating 1200 damage, and requiring 4800 to get them to full.

A WAR, assuming they don't yet have Relic +1, will be healing for 1100-1300 non-crit. This leaves the WAR also requiring 4800 to get them to full health.
This leaves them on even footing. Both will take the same time to get back to full because both will need 4800 healing and WAR will not have any healing bonus likely until 5 seconds later. Even assuming the boss does no additional damage in these 5 seconds this is where the warrior begins to fall behind.

Now that the WAR is slowing building stacks back up (it takes at least 15 more seconds to get back to max). Over these 15 seconds a WAR will average ~9% bonus healing. During these 15 seconds the tank is going to be taking damage. While a PLD will be taking 20% reduced damage, and thus requiring 25% less heals. The WAR on the other hand is taking 100% of the damage, but only has a ~9% healing bonus averaged out. Over this time period, average out, the WAR is at a ~15% disadvantage in healing. Meaning it takes the healers 15% more healing to compensate for the damage.

This means (potentially) 2 things: More globals in order to get the WAR to full before the Mountain Buster, and more mp spent by the healers.

This is a rather "dry" analysis because it ignores 3 important things, Block, Crits, and Cooldowns. Still, looking at those doesn't really help the position of the WAR.

I call tanking cooldowns anything that mitigates damage in some way either from damage reduction or healing. The warrior "tanking" cooldowns are blood bath, foresight (i think it was calculated to get about a 5% reduction in physical damage), featherfoot, inner beast, and storm's path(worthless). The only one of which helps with magic damage is Bloodbath and it is so laughable of a heal its hard to even count that ( vs bosses that auto attack for 1k damage and nuke for 2k+).

Actually, Hiir is right on this aspect. Berserk is a tanking cooldown because it increases our heal from Inner Beast. Infuriate is also a tanking cooldown. Foresight and Bloodbath are extremely underpowered, but Berserk and Infuriate shouldn't be ignored as tanking CD's.

Bloodbath heals you for 25% of the total damage you do over it's duration. This counts for auto attack, vengeance, abilities, crits, etc etc etc. Take the damage you do to anything, during it's duration, and take 25% of that. That's the health you gained, that was not required to be healed by a healer. That's not laughable, that's a LOT. It's the same adage with things like fracture. FRACTURE DOES AS MUCH DAMAGE AS BUTCHER'S BLOCK... but people don't realize it because they don't see the big shiny damage number.

I also didn't use featherfoot - that might change, however, but I feel that missing out on vengeance procs for more TP and bloodbath and potential crits (the often forgotten other bonus from wrath) is not worth it for increase chance to dodge (which you do a lot anyway).

You are so off on all of this man. You really don't have the end-game experience to have an accurate picture. 25% of all the damage you deal? Yes, Warriors deal decent damage as a tank, and worse our highest DPS rotation (incorporating Fracture) is lower threat, which can be an issue on hard fights. But just using myself as an example: As a WAR tank I do ~100 DPS (this is using Unchained and Berserk as DPS cooldowns, which shouldn't really be done in real combat). I would say my rotation is pretty good. Not perfect and my gear could improve, but 100 DPS is good for a tank. It's 2/3 of what a "good" dps does at my gear level, roughly.

So 100 DPS over 30 seconds = 3000 damage. 25% of 3000 damage is 750 health.

Bloodbath is a 750 health HoT over 30 seconds under ideal circumstances on a 90 second cooldown. That works out to roughly 25 health per second, obviously. If there is any way to characterize this, it definitely not "a lot." It's worth using every cooldown, obviously, but it is a minimally effective cooldown.

Also, Featherfoot is the second (maybe 3rd on some fights) most valuable off class skill we can get. Why you would not run it in favor of Vengeance (which is a class skill so why is this in competition?) is something that baffles me.

[HiirNoivl]

Because bosses don't just stop damage after they use a big hit. --

Yet I still manage to tank Titan with no problems. My healers don't really complain. (Unless of course, we have a second healer that's not really doing their job.) (Maybe because I use Convalescence while I stack Wrath V???)

Also, it depends on the healer. I much much MUCH prefer Scholars, due to Lustrate, which cures based on Max HP, Max HP which STACKS with Thrill of Battle mind you. Also, Fey Light, which increases my Skill Speed and my climb to Wrath V, and also Succor and Aldoquim (sp?), which completely nullifies damage, and Sacred Soil which grants a free Succor.

The Healers that are suffering the most from WAR tanking is WHMs. If I have a SCH with me, I feel pretty darn near invincible. lol

i guess i should say... Warrior has NO tanking cooldowns that scale with boss damage.

Yeah I guess that would be making it too easy. :P

I see this a lot, because WAR depends on you and the party doing their job, scaling your personal push-button skill level to boss damage. But many folks don't have the patience for that. But the rewards are pretty nice.

[Derza]

Yeah I guess that would be making it too easy. :P

I see this a lot, because WAR depends on you and the party doing their job, scaling your personal push-button skill level to boss damage. But many folks don't have the patience for that. But the rewards are pretty nice.

(Maybe because I use Convalescence while I stack Wrath V???)

I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish in your posts... We all know the warrior tanking skills do something and you can get by with them for the most part... up to turn 4/5 in coil. The issue is the difference in the effectiveness of warrior and paladin in the harder situations.

And your quote about convalescence... how is that any valid reasoning? Paladins have it also but they don't get 20% healing... they get 30%. Meaning you are getting AT BEST 35% effective healing while they can have 62.5% effective healing (And this isn't even counting if they have any of their other damage recution cooldowns running! Paladin effective healing skyrockets then.) (30% healing means more because of their 20% damage reduction so its 25% + ((1.25x.3)x100) = 62.5%)

[Hachiko]

Yet I still manage to tank Titan with no problems. My healers don't really complain. (Unless of course, we have a second healer that's not really doing their job.) (Maybe because I use Convalescence while I stack Wrath V???)

Yes, it's possibly to tank Titan as a WAR that's already been widely accepted. That doesn't change the fact that it's significantly easier to survive as a paladin and it requires significantly less healing to keep a PLD tank alive.

Your healers probably don't complain because you are frankly overgeared for the instance. HQ Darksteel and Relic +1 is a little outside of the realm of what is normal / intended for Titan, particularly on a first kill.

I also agree that Convalesence is one of our best cooldowns. But acting like it gives the upper hand to a WAR is silly. It's 50% more effective for paladins baseline, but it's effectively multiplicitive for their damage reduction, while it's only additive with WAR healing bonus. Popping Convalescence on both a WAR and a PLD makes the healing deficit over 20%, meaning with the cooldown up it will take 20% more healing to heal the same portion of health as it takes to heal a PLD.

The point is, yes, Warriors can be sufficient for Titan, but Titan is where the game starts to really show how much more effective Paladins are at taking and mitigating damage.

[Eardstapa]

Some prefer the Warrior play style, others prefer Paladin's play style. A lot of this is theory crafting, as it ought be, a lot of it has been field tested multiple times... But remember one thing. We should work together to bring the tanks more in line with each other, rather than make one vastly superior to the other. Should Warriors take as little damage as Paladins? No. Should Paladins have self heal sustain like Warriors? No. Could both stand to have each end buffed slightly? Aye. Like I said, currently WAR requires a higher skill cap from not only you, but your WHM as well... And people do not like that for raids. People prefer simplicity and ease, there is no denial of that. So what could we do to make WAR more viable besides giving it defensive cool-downs? Besides giving it more raw HP on its modifier? Discuss that, and discuss how it would be in balance with Paladin rather than look at it from one side.