WAR vs PLD HP values and EHP.

[Lhun]

9) Vengeance is ignored. Coupled with bloodbath, physically swift attacking enemies (or groups of them) heal us to full without any intervention. Remember MNK in ff11's 2 hour ability? It's like that.
10) Storm's Eye, Fracture, and our base DPS with combos is completely ignored. The fight will be ended MUCH sooner with a WAR then with a PLD (if you can't have both), who's damage might as well not exist in most cases - you have no skills which ignore the enemy defense or cause them to take more damage, or prevent self healing.

it's simple:

PLD is an excellent tank for magic using, unstunnable bosses who are a single target fight ESPECIALLY MAGIC USING.

WAR is an excellent tank for physical, swift attacking foes, or those who spawn add-on, or enemies who shift agro randomly, as they can be dealt with using Holmgang, or fights that need to be ended sooner then later.

They're both good for different things. Other WAR crying for a balance need to learn the job.

[Hachiko]

They're both good for different things. Other WAR crying for a balance need to learn the job.

Says the level 42 Warrior...

Remember when you said:

Vengeance is ignored. Coupled with bloodbath, physically swift attacking enemies (or groups of them) heal us to full without any intervention.

Yeah, that was POSSIBLY the most laughable thing I've read. Particularly coming from a WAR that doesn't have Vengeance yet.

You don't have the information necessary to make such grandiose claims.

[Derza]

it's simple:

PLD is an excellent tank for magic using, unstunnable bosses who are a single target fight ESPECIALLY MAGIC USING.

WAR is an excellent tank for physical, swift attacking foes, or those who spawn add-on, or enemies who shift agro randomly, as they can be dealt with using Holmgang, or fights that need to be ended sooner then later.

They're both good for different things. Other WAR crying for a balance need to learn the job.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about... Don't put other people down when you are not max level and have not experienced end game - half the information that you assume to be true is totally off. The concern with warriors is not 4 man encounters, that has never been an issue... Its the 8 mans where warriors suffer.

[Lhun]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about... Don't put other people down when you are not max level and have not experienced end game - half the information that you assume to be true is totally off. The concern with warriors is not 4 man encounters, that has never been an issue... Its the 8 mans where warriors suffer.

You do realize I'm a legacy player who had beta 1.0 access and I've played in every beta of ARR as well... oh, guess you didn't. I preferred to re-roll to play anew with friends on a server that wasn't locked out completely during scaling issues.

Also there are several abilities which very swiftly, if not instantly, restore infuriate to 5, and you should paying attention to this by end game, and working macros and rotations accordingly.

[Coramac]

Absolutely untrue. You get a upgrade in percentage-more-healed for every wrath stack you have.

It is absolutely true. The Paladin already has a 66.7% advantage in bonus healing, 8.7% in absolute healing advantage.

At 0 stacks, Pal has infinite edge in bonus healing and 25% absolute healing advantage.
At 1 stack- 833% and 21.4%
At 2 stacks- 417% and 17.9%
At 3 stacks- 277% and 14.7%
At 4 stacks- 108% and 11.6%
At 5 stacks- 66% and 8.7%

Also important to note, that if using IB as a tanking cooldown, you will be at your greatest disadvantage at a time of importance.

I think this chart really illustrates the big problem. Pal always has a significant incoming heal advantage. If the Warrior uses IB, the healing advantage for a Paladin increases to, quite frankly, absurd levels (using the absolute advantage). A 9% disadvantage is bad... but being at a 15-25% disadvantage is just absolutely absurd.

snip

What other abilities?

[HiirNoivl]

What other abilities?

When are you ever setting at 0 stacks as WAR though? And why are you not counting the healing you just received from Inner Beast???

This is what I don't understand why people are comparing WAR and PLD this way. PLD has no self heals at all so it relies on incoming heals from the Mage so it needs this healing advantages to survive.

Yet when the WAR uses Inner Beast it is said to be at a disadvantage because it's heals are coming from Inner Beast instead of the mage??

[Derza]

When are you ever setting at 0 stacks as WAR though? And why are you not counting the healing you just received from Inner Beast???

This is what I don't understand why people are comparing WAR and PLD this way. PLD has no self heals at all so it relies on incoming heals from the Mage so it needs this healing advantages to survive.

Yet when the WAR uses Inner Beast it is said to be at a disadvantage because it's heals are coming from Inner Beast instead of the mage??

Don't forget paladin has all the tanking cool downs and warrior has basically none. I think most people see inner beast as a way to compensate for paladin CD's not something to almost make defiance as good as shield oath.

[HiirNoivl]

Don't forget paladin has all the tanking cool downs and warrior has basically none. I think most people see inner beast as a way to compensate for paladin CD's not something to almost make defiance as good as shield oath.

What is your definition of "Tanking Cool Down"?

That's the thing. Of course, WAR looks gimp when your definition of "What is tanking" is so narrow.

[Coramac]

You are sitting at 0 stacks the moment you activate IB. If you are taking some 9000 damage in a short period of time as people indicate you do in Coil, it's very easy to see how War fall behind. In terms of pure instantaneous survivability, the War and Pal are equal. That spike damage is not instantaneous. It probably occurs over a 2-3ish timeframe. Pal has a 8.7% healing advantage during this. War uses IB after it. Let's just say it heals for 2000. Healing advantage Pal has spikes significantly. 2000 is ~2 auto attacks. Some follow up is mitigated. That's true. But, the incoming healing is greatly reduced compared to Paladin. During the recovery from burst phase, damage is still incoming and I'd bet money there are additional (less severe) burst spikes here the Pal has a huge advantage.

IB is a disadvantage because a War is already at a healing disadvantage compared to a Pal and when used that gap explodes.

[Lhun]

You are sitting at 0 stacks the moment you activate IB.

Literally EVERY ACTION YOU DO at end game gives you wrath. There is an ability that instantly maxes it. If you are being attacked after a large attack which you could not stun, you are using bloodbath. Coupled with vengeance, you are gaining health with every single strike and ability you use. The damage rotation gives you health. Thrill of Battle gives you health. Storm's Path heals you every 6 seconds, and you're using it constantly. You can use Convalescence from GLD which stack with all your healing abilities - all of them - you can use Mantra which FURTHER increases the health gained, plus being able to toss in a second wind every time it's up. You can use Awareness to prevent crits if that's an issue, and you parry ALL THE TIME, because of the job's large natural str. It's more balanced then you think.