WAR vs PLD HP values and EHP.

[HiirNoivl]

As it is, I tested that I do 3 more DPS with my DET set than with someone who has no DET (all other things being equal). My thing is that last line "HP recovered by Spells" is the similar wording used by the Defiance Buff tooltip.

[Bigpurpleharness]

Anyone who has played both classes and/or can do basic math should be able to tell rather easily if 20% damage reduction fulltime beats 25% HP rather easily.

Self heals besides inner beast are a joke. (Mercy Stroke hardly counts, only being usable at the end of a fight, relegating it to loltrash)

Foresight is a HUGE joke, and blood bath isn't much better.

When the best warrior defensive traits are Gladiator x-class abilities, well...

[Coramac]

As it is, I tested that I do 3 more DPS with my DET set than with someone who has no DET (all other things being equal). My thing is that last line "HP recovered by Spells" is the similar wording used by the Defiance Buff tooltip.

Determination: Increases the amount of damage dealt by all attacks and the amount of HP recovered by spells.
Defiance: Each unit of Wrath increases critical hit rate by 2% and HP recovery via curing magic by 3%.

It's awkward wording for sure. I read "via" as "through" which would have broader implications than the Determination description.

[PessimiStick]

I'm 90% sure that DET does nothing for heals ON you, only for heals BY you, but it would be incredibly simple to test, just get as low DET as possible, get spam healed by a WHM, take the average, then equip DET and re-test.

[wlakiz]

What kills tank is not individual tank's EHP, but its the damage unpredictability and damage output exceeding healer's 'healput'. Warriors and pallys are designed differently, such that pallys are pre-damage management while warriors are post damage management.

To deal with burst damage, pally uses cooldowns, while warrior uses post damage heals. Against damage output, pally passively decreases enemies' attack, while warrior increases healer's 'healput'.

Overall, my conclusion is that pally is better when the group is less coordinated. Warrior will out shine pally when the group can leverage the improved 'healput' and damage boost that warrior provides.

[Hachiko]

I don't know, OP. I think talking about EHP while ignoring Parry, Block, and Rage of Halone is folly, since unlike cooldowns they will always be up. Unfortunately we don't know much about block rate and parry rates, which makes it difficult. But these considerations put PLD far above WAR in EHP before you even get to cooldowns.

Looking at your gear; You have 390 Vit and 4851 HP without Defiance.

2125 + (14.5 x (390-202))
2125 + (14.5 x (188))
2125 + 2726 = 4851

So, where am I wrong again?

He's probably counting how much he has in an 8 man with the stat bonus lit up in group, which is actually the numbers you should be using since it's really the only time stuff like this matters.

To deal with burst damage, pally uses cooldowns, while warrior uses post damage heals. Against damage output, pally passively decreases enemies' attack, while warrior increases healer's 'healput'.

It's a common refrain but this is wrong. The effective throughput of a healer is going to be higher with a paladin than it is with a warrior every day of the week. 20% damage reduction functions as both 25% more EHP and 25% more healing received. WAR tanks only get 15% more healing received with 5 stacks up, which means either when Infuriate is on Cooldown or when they haven't used inner beast.

And that's not even counting shield block, which also doesn't seem to be counted in the OP's post.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

I'm 90% sure that DET does nothing for heals ON you, only for heals BY you, but it would be incredibly simple to test, just get as low DET as possible, get spam healed by a WHM, take the average, then equip DET and re-test.

I think I would have to agree with this.

One way to test this is to take a low level Conjurer and cast Cure on a level 1 target. Then cast Cure on a level 50. If Determination affects incoming healing, then the level 50 should have drastically more HP restored.

[Rizzo]

I think I would have to agree with this.

One way to test this is to take a low level Conjurer and cast Cure on a level 1 target. Then cast Cure on a level 50. If Determination affects incoming healing, then the level 50 should have drastically more HP restored.

On my 42 CNJ, I just cast Regen on random people. Regen tics for the same amount on myself as it does on a level 5 Blacksmith. Or anyone else I randomly pick.

My observation is that Determination affects the heals you cast (basically this is a stat to increase attack power and attack/healing magic potency all-in-one), or else that level 5 Blacksmith has invested heavily in Determination (about 150 points).

People are throwing around way too much misinformation without actually trying things for themselves. If you don't understand a tooltip just try it for yourself rather than taking someone else's word for it.

[Lharz]

I think talking about EHP while ignoring Parry, Block, and Rage of Halone is folly, since unlike cooldowns they will always be up.

You can't rely on a completely random stat to determine a solid "overall resistance score". EHP with parry/block is not called EHP.

Unfortunately we don't know much about block rate and parry rates, which makes it difficult.

I'm approximatively at ~9% parry chance according to FFXIVAPP (on a long fight session at lvl 50 against lvl 50 targets) with ~400 parry rate.

[wlakiz]

It's a common refrain but this is wrong. The effective throughput of a healer is going to be higher with a paladin than it is with a warrior every day of the week. 20% damage reduction functions as both 25% more EHP and 25% more healing received. WAR tanks only get 15% more healing received with 5 stacks up, which means either when Infuriate is on Cooldown or when they haven't used inner beast.

And that's not even counting shield block, which also doesn't seem to be counted in the OP's post.

WAR's infuriate is a 60s cooldown so 5 wrath stacks is pretty much always up. Common strategy is to pop infuriate right after using inner beast to maintain the 15% heal buff. Against bursts, the calculation for warrior's 'mitigation' should be Burst damage - Inner Beast. For a 5000 damage attack, pally would take 4000 damage, while a warrior takes 3500. (5000 - ~1500)

Most damage bursts are magic based so block doesn't do anything.