WAR vs PLD HP values and EHP.

[wlakiz]

What kills tank is not individual tank's EHP, but its the damage unpredictability and damage output exceeding healer's 'healput'. Warriors and pallys are designed differently, such that pallys are pre-damage management while warriors are post damage management.

To deal with burst damage, pally uses cooldowns, while warrior uses post damage heals. Against damage output, pally passively decreases enemies' attack, while warrior increases healer's 'healput'.

Overall, my conclusion is that pally is better when the group is less coordinated. Warrior will out shine pally when the group can leverage the improved 'healput' and damage boost that warrior provides.

[Hachiko]

I don't know, OP. I think talking about EHP while ignoring Parry, Block, and Rage of Halone is folly, since unlike cooldowns they will always be up. Unfortunately we don't know much about block rate and parry rates, which makes it difficult. But these considerations put PLD far above WAR in EHP before you even get to cooldowns.

Looking at your gear; You have 390 Vit and 4851 HP without Defiance.

2125 + (14.5 x (390-202))
2125 + (14.5 x (188))
2125 + 2726 = 4851

So, where am I wrong again?

He's probably counting how much he has in an 8 man with the stat bonus lit up in group, which is actually the numbers you should be using since it's really the only time stuff like this matters.

To deal with burst damage, pally uses cooldowns, while warrior uses post damage heals. Against damage output, pally passively decreases enemies' attack, while warrior increases healer's 'healput'.

It's a common refrain but this is wrong. The effective throughput of a healer is going to be higher with a paladin than it is with a warrior every day of the week. 20% damage reduction functions as both 25% more EHP and 25% more healing received. WAR tanks only get 15% more healing received with 5 stacks up, which means either when Infuriate is on Cooldown or when they haven't used inner beast.

And that's not even counting shield block, which also doesn't seem to be counted in the OP's post.

[Lharz]

I think talking about EHP while ignoring Parry, Block, and Rage of Halone is folly, since unlike cooldowns they will always be up.

You can't rely on a completely random stat to determine a solid "overall resistance score". EHP with parry/block is not called EHP.

Unfortunately we don't know much about block rate and parry rates, which makes it difficult.

I'm approximatively at ~9% parry chance according to FFXIVAPP (on a long fight session at lvl 50 against lvl 50 targets) with ~400 parry rate.

[Coramac]

EHP with parry/block is not called EHP.

Exactly. EHP is effectively a measure of burst survivability. It is still not the complete picture, as the mechanic for Warrior increased EHP does not affect healing identically. Evasion stats don't matter.** You are looking at taking and surviving a "burst" which is typically an auto attack, special, auto attack, plus any ambient damage that hit you in very quick order. You will almost certainly receive limited healing during the burst, but equally important is surviving to past the burst. It doesn't matter if you lived through the burst barely and then died to an auto attack. I'd say that, judging from the numbers people have used, a fight where the boss puts out ~2500 DPS linearly would be a trivial fight for those going through Coil. Change the structure to lower linear DPS with non-linear spike damage and things get significantly harder.

[Coramac]

**Evasion mechanics, at high values, can be used to significantly lower the burst damage probability. This is why Defense had to be changed in early WoW via a 33% value nerf across all items. They also contribute to efficiency which extremely important for endurance fights which seem to have left the realm of MMOs for the most part.

[wlakiz]

It's a common refrain but this is wrong. The effective throughput of a healer is going to be higher with a paladin than it is with a warrior every day of the week. 20% damage reduction functions as both 25% more EHP and 25% more healing received. WAR tanks only get 15% more healing received with 5 stacks up, which means either when Infuriate is on Cooldown or when they haven't used inner beast.

And that's not even counting shield block, which also doesn't seem to be counted in the OP's post.

WAR's infuriate is a 60s cooldown so 5 wrath stacks is pretty much always up. Common strategy is to pop infuriate right after using inner beast to maintain the 15% heal buff. Against bursts, the calculation for warrior's 'mitigation' should be Burst damage - Inner Beast. For a 5000 damage attack, pally would take 4000 damage, while a warrior takes 3500. (5000 - ~1500)

Most damage bursts are magic based so block doesn't do anything.

[Hachiko]

WAR's infuriate is a 60s cooldown so 5 wrath stacks is pretty much always up. Common strategy is to pop infuriate right after using inner beast to maintain the 15% heal buff. Against bursts, the calculation for warrior's 'mitigation' should be Burst damage - Inner Beast. For a 5000 damage attack, pally would take 4000 damage, while a warrior takes 3500. (5000 - ~1500)

Most damage bursts are magic based so block doesn't do anything.

You absolutely wont have infuriate up for every breath attack / burst spell. I can assure that. You will be able to Inner Beast each of them, for sure. But infurate's cooldown is longer than that.

And that also ignores PLD's cooldowns. So you have to use a cooldown as a WAR to even catch up to a PLD without using a Cooldown...

[wlakiz]

You absolutely wont have infuriate up for every breath attack / burst spell. I can assure that. You will be able to Inner Beast each of them, for sure. But infurate's cooldown is longer than that.

And that also ignores PLD's cooldowns. So you have to use a cooldown as a WAR to even catch up to a PLD without using a Cooldown...

Inner beast is not a cooldown, it is part of Warrior's core mechanic, which surpasses PLD's 20% core mitigation is per my example. Popping Infuriate is to maintain the heal boost, if you don't use it, you can still get 5 wrath back in 3 rotations.

[Hachiko]

Inner beast is not a cooldown, it is part of Warrior's core mechanic, which surpasses PLD's 20% core mitigation is per my example. Popping Infuriate is to maintain the heal boost, if you don't use it, you can still get 5 wrath back in 3 rotations.

Inner beast isn't but Infuriate is.

If you don't use infuriate you lose a significant amount of healing which puts you WAY behind the 20% damage mitigation, and you're talking about mitigating part of one big hit, while the damage keeps coming after that one hit. It takes at least 20 seconds to get back up to 5 stacks. That means if you don't have infuriate up that you take significantly more mana, and significantly more GCD's to keep up despite mitigating more of that single large hit.

[HiirNoivl]

Inner beast isn't but Infuriate is.

If you don't use infuriate you lose a significant amount of healing which puts you WAY behind the 20% damage mitigation, and you're talking about mitigating part of one big hit, while the damage keeps coming after that one hit. It takes at least 20 seconds to get back up to 5 stacks. That means if you don't have infuriate up that you take significantly more mana, and significantly more GCD's to keep up despite mitigating more of that single large hit.

Absolutely untrue. You get a upgrade in percentage-more-healed for every wrath stack you have.