Defiance still lacking in comparison to Shield Oath

[Sephirah]

then whats the reason to play a war if war cant main tanking endgame?

People will roll WAR because there will be fights where their skills at offtanking will be needed. This is a team game and everyone has a role to play. If you want to be main tank, you can with a WAR it will just be harder.. But as many people have stated, if WAR had as much mitigation as a PLD then there is 0 reason to be a PLD, everyone would be WAR. This is not WoW where every class has a different spec that lets it perform the exact same role as another class.

And Faction, I think you are the one hung up on the idea that being off tanks makes them worse. Being offtanks does not mean paladins are the "better" tanks, it just means they are better at being the main tank, Offtanking is still a role that needs to be filled, it's not about one being better than the other, they just have two different things they're good at.

[hola]

There is going to be some content that favor a PLD's skill set and there will be others that favor WAR. They are different tanks with different strengths and suit different playstyles.

i havent find any dungeon where war can do significant better job than pld.

however, there are many boss fight or content can only be done by pld.

for example, Ampador keep speed run, its super difficult or nearly impossible for war to train mobs before the last boss.

[Derza]

for example, Ampador keep speed run, its super difficult or nearly impossible for war to train mobs before the last boss.

I watched a group do it by clearing the first couple of trash pulls then training from there... It only takes a few mins longer.

[Hachiko]

And Faction, I think you are the one hung up on the idea that being off tanks makes them worse. Being offtanks does not mean paladins are the "better" tanks, it just means they are better at being the main tank, Offtanking is still a role that needs to be filled, it's not about one being better than the other, they just have two different things they're good at.

I don't know why people keep saying this but it's very ignorant. Everything that makes a job a good tank makes them a good offtank. In fact, WAR is going to be a far worse offtank when against multiple mobs because they won't be able to keep vengeance stacks even if they can keep enmity with flash spam and overpower. But those skills don't stack wrath, which leaves a warrior "off tank" at a significant disadvantage without his/her 15% healing received buff, whereas a PLD always has 20% damage reduction.

Can you give one reason why a WAR would be a better "offtank"?

[Doublestep]

I've healed a couple ifrit HMs and AKs with all warrior tanks, while they seemed to take a teensy bit harder hits they were no more difficult to heal as a PLD

[Wangstrong]

It's not really Shield Oath vs. Defiance that's the problem (although please make the healing bonus native to Defiance instead of the Wrath stacks, this is simply necessary or most of the warrior job skills will remain worthless) but rather the fact that paladins have all these vastly superior tanking cooldowns on top of their already better stance.

If the difference had mainly been that one class mitigates damage 20% better and can block attacks while the other has 25% more HP and does more damage, that would have been completely fine. Paladin would still be the better boss tank without warrior being so far behind that their place in a raid can barely be justified. It's these multiple insanely strong cooldowns on top that make the difference too big.

It's like there's something missing here -- the warrior is unequivocally a tank class, yet it has one measly tanking cooldown, and a very poor one at that (tests indicate that Foresight gives less than 10% mitigation). The self-healing is mostly worthless, with only Inner Beast really being noteworthy. Bloodbath and Storm's Path could have their healing doubled without becoming overpowered. They simply don't count as tanking abilities. The warrior just doesn't have enough tanking abilities for a class that is exclusively a tank and is barred from being anything else by hardcoded mechanics.

The divide is only widened by the fact that paladins have entirely decent AoE aggro, incredible raid utility in their freaking cooldownless stun (whose idea was that?!), and of course are able to spam Stoneskin on themselves mid-fight because casting in combat appears to carry no disadvantages. It's all this stuff they have where warriors have nothing comparable and are just completely gimped, having basically nothing but high HP and a small self-heal that comes at a considerable opportunity cost.

You cannot make a class that is only a tank, can only queue for instances as tank, has tank itemization, and is constantly advertised as definitely not DPS, and then give that class mostly DPS abilities and say that their decent damage is the reason they're not allowed to tank very well. It makes no sense and is a complete failure of game design, a declaration of ignorance of MMORPG standards, and simply a lapse in common sense. It would be entirely possible to make the two tank classes unique and distinct without having to resort to making one deliberately worse at a job that they both have and are forced to perform at all times. I can't believe something so obvious was not realized in three years of development.

The warrior job needs two or three additional tanking abilities that are on par with Rampart, Sentinel and Hallowed Ground. Until this happens, the class is going to remain broken and unable to perform its role sufficiently. The real endgame content isn't even out yet and already the job's shortcomings are becoming clear, with warriors being barely capable of tanking some of the current content whereas the thing that they're supposed to be good at is suspiciously absent and, anyway, it's obvious that paladins will be able to do that just fine as well.

[Delorean]

This is not WoW where every class has a different spec that lets it perform the exact same role as another class.

I don't know when the last time you played WoW was, but Warriors/Death Knight mid pack (but DK has niche), Druids are the worst, and Monk/Paladin is indisputably the best. Monks do stupid damage as a tank and have good survivability, Paladins can also do stupid damage and cheese mechanics with bubble.

I mean, I know it's nitpicky, but that really is not an argument. If anything, you are saying the same exact thing that anyone playing World of Warcraft says when a Warrior or Druid complains about their class being bad.

If you want to play a Warrior, then play a Warrior. People can't take something to a raid group that they don't have.

I watched a group do it by clearing the first couple of trash pulls then training from there... It only takes a few mins longer.

thats what i did

[Sephirah]

I mean, I know it's nitpicky, but that really is not an argument. If anything, you are saying the same exact thing that anyone playing World of Warcraft says when a Warrior or Druid complains about their class being bad.

If you want to play a Warrior, then play a Warrior. People can't take something to a raid group that they don't have.

What are you talking about, I'm not complaining about any class being bad, I like how pld and war currently are. And my comment about WoW was not related to balance, it was related to the fact that they design their classes to be interchangable, you can be a tank/heal/dps regardless of your class, and that simply doesn't work here. You can't be a dps or heal paladin, you can only be a tank, that's the only thing it can do, and therefore it needs to do it well, hence the higher mitigation.

[Wangstrong]

You can't be a dps or heal paladin, you can only be a tank, that's the only thing it can do, and therefore it needs to do it well, hence the higher mitigation.

You can't be a DPS warrior. Your argument is completely invalid and incorrect.

[Sephirah]

You can't be a DPS warrior. Your argument is completely invalid and incorrect.

Wow way to grasp at straws and try to twist my words guys. I'm not saying warrior is DPS. But it is a fact that they have higher damage, and with that in mind Square has balanced them to be more of a brawler, check the interview I linked a few pages back.

You cannot have Higher HP, Health Regen, Higher Damage, AoE abilities, and equal mitigation, if that were the case, there would be zero reason to be a pld. Fact.

As I and many others have said, each class has a role to fill, they designed these two DIFFERENT tanks to handle different situations. If you want more mitigation to make main tanking easier, stop complaining and role a PLD.