Defiance still lacking in comparison to Shield Oath

[pepero]

I have a problem with the 30s stun for warriors, why don't we get a similar stun time like Paladins? They already have better EHP and they get a 2.5s stun? Someone help me understand.

[Faction]

I have a problem with the 30s stun for warriors, why don't we get a similar stun time like Paladins? They already have better EHP and they get a 2.5s stun? Someone help me understand.

The warrior stun is off the gcd and can be used for a little bit of extra damage/threat on cooldown even when enemies are immune to stuns. Paladin's stun generates practically no threat, and there's diminishing returns on stuns anyway so you don't want to spam them. If anything, the stuns are an example of good balance.

[Jahaudant]

Really wish you would stop saying PLD is flat out better than WAR. It's simply untrue.

[Coramac]

Quite honestly if a boss is doing enough damage to overcome a warrior's self healing 9 times out of 10 that amount of damage will over come the mitigation of a PLD too. The only exception being Hallowed Ground applied to extreme conditions.

My running of the numbers indicate that the Pal is ahead on a 1000 heal from Inner Beast if he is healed for ~5800 damage in 20 seconds (double for 2000 IB).

[Coramac]

Internal Release > Inner Beast > Storm's Eye Combo > Butcher's Block Combo > Maim Combo > Berserk > Inner Beast > Storm's Path > Butcher's Block Combo > Storm's Eye Combo > Inner Beast.

The inherent problem with this combo and the method you are proposing using is that using Inner Beast results in the loss of the incoming heal buff. Running an average, based on this combo, I'm showing your incoming healing running at .07875 which is a reduction of roughly 50%. Inner Beast is healing for 1000, then the break point for Inner Beast being a positive factor is ~12500 heals from healer (double it for 2000). As I said, I'm not end game, so I don't know how this compares. I expect that Inner Beast is going to be better utilized similar to a CD ability.

[Duelle]

"The tanks should be different" doesn't mean one tank has to be flat out better than the other. They could function differently but still be equally good. The current design concept could be fine with some numbers tweaks or tweaks to Warrior defensive cooldowns.

This. Tanks can play differently or have different mechanics but still perform comparably.

[Derza]

Faction is the guy everyone should listen in this discussion and i aint jokin.Derza mate i think you should stop wioth your nonsense talk of Inner beast healing you for 1600 with you gear...as that is pure BS.
Anyway i would like to see Warriors getting more DMG mitigation tools aswell as self heals aint a good trade off , specialy if you put into account he complexity of Warrior gameplay.

1600 would be a crit... I'm not saying non crits hit for that much... Last night I was paying more attention to the amount inner beast was healing me and id say most non crits were in the 800-1000 range, 1300-1500 when critting and as much as 2300 with berserk + crit.

[Ahlen]

Warriors seem better at dealing with damage spikes to me.

[Hachiko]

The inherent problem with this combo and the method you are proposing using is that using Inner Beast results in the loss of the incoming heal buff. Running an average, based on this combo, I'm showing your incoming healing running at .07875 which is a reduction of roughly 50%. Inner Beast is healing for 1000, then the break point for Inner Beast being a positive factor is ~12500 heals from healer (double it for 2000). As I said, I'm not end game, so I don't know how this compares. I expect that Inner Beast is going to be better utilized similar to a CD ability.

1000 is actually a small inner beast heal. At my level (48) I can hit 1000 inner beast heals on a non-crit by popping berserk. My biggest so far was 1500 on a crit with berserk up (and of course Maim). I expect the norm to be higher at 50 with better gear.

Still, if the threshold is 12,500 that makes it look pretty damn good for using inner beast. for the healing to be worth it you would basically have to get back to 5 stacks before you receive 12,500 healing. But even then I think your numbers are off. Your healing bonus is actually active and changes over time as you perform your combos.

I think ideal (in terms of enmity) will be (ignoring cooldowns):

Inner Beast -> Storms Eye Combo (2 stacks) -> Butcher's Block Combo (4 stacks) -> Skull Sunder (5 stacks) -> Inner Beast -> Butchers Block (1 stack) -> Storm's Eye Combo (3 stacks) -> Butcher's Block Combo (5 stacks) -> Inner Beast.

Realistically you wound need a Fracture in there somewhere, or at least it might be useful. It could maybe be more ideal for dps or whatever but let's just use this as an example.

Anyhow the point of this illustration is that if 15% bonus heals is the "baseline" (making 115% base), then for each stack of Defiance you're missing it's like having a 2.6% healing reduction (13% at all missing (15/115)). So for the first 2.5 seconds (assuming no skill speed) you have 13% reduction. Then 10.4% for the next 2.5, then 7.8, for the next 2.5, then 5.2, then 2.6 then you're back to 115% heals.

The point is it's going to be constantly fluctuating.

I think the bottom line is that in a 4 man it will always be worth it to use Inner Beast as long as you can use the heals. In an 8 man it will depend on how the healing goes. 2 people spamming single target tank heals would mean that it's situational (possibly useful for emergencies and/or big spikes). In the 24 man raid content it will again be based entirely on encounter design. The more healers you have spamming cure 2 the less useful it will be to use inner beast. But if it's a situation where you only are "allotted" one healer, then it would be useful/usable.

**note** it will be interesting how this goes once it's more common to be in the highest endgame gear. I'm not sure if Defiance will scale as well with high ilvl endgame gear as Shield Oath does.

[Junk4Brains]

The inherent problem with this combo and the method you are proposing using is that using Inner Beast results in the loss of the incoming heal buff. Running an average, based on this combo, I'm showing your incoming healing running at .07875 which is a reduction of roughly 50%. Inner Beast is healing for 1000, then the break point for Inner Beast being a positive factor is ~12500 heals from healer (double it for 2000). As I said, I'm not end game, so I don't know how this compares. I expect that Inner Beast is going to be better utilized similar to a CD ability.

Well I am more a fan of simple math. So here is my perspective.
Lets say on average a healer heals you for 1000 health and spams it every 3 seconds. That comes to 20,000 HPR (HP recovery) a minute. 15% of 20,000 is 3000.

Now lets just say you hit Inner Beast for 200 damage. That is 600 health naked. Times 3 that is 1800 HPR. A loss of 1200.

Lets say you have Maim/Storm's Eye up. That 600 becomes 780 or 2340 HPR for a loss of 660.

Now you factor in crits and the 50% bonus from Berserk and well that is when Inner Beast starts showing positive results. So loosing that 15% boost to healing is not the death sentence people make it out to be. Now using raw naked Inner Beasts... not the most productive thing. But even at the low end of the damage spectrum if you have Maim and Storm's Eye up the health lost can be worth it as the spike in damage also means a spike in hate. And the more hate you secure the more rotations you can fill in your Storm's Path combo for added healing.

But lets face it your healer is not going to be spamming cures every 3 seconds and you're not going to be popping off Inner Beasts every 15-20 seconds. I just gave that rotation as an example of of a WAR was capable of. If I had to explain how a WAR is meant to tank, I would have to say the closest example that comes to mind is how a matador 'tanks' a bull. Your goal is to get as close as possible to the danger of defeat and avoid it by as small a margin as possible. In order for this to work the tank needs to have a lot of trust in the healer and the healer a lot of trust in the tank.

What happens though is in PUG's that trust is not always there. Healers aren't always aware of WAR's mechanics or their specific rotation. So when a tank gets to half health they'll use Inner Beast and the healer will hit them with a Cure bomb. And A LOT of that 'healing' is wasted as any healing past max hp is wasted health. And as this goes on the WAR is wasting stacks and the healer is wasting MP and the over all efficiency gets flushed down the toilet.

This is where again. The strongest skill a tank can use comes in to play. Communication! Tell your healers your comfort zones. Like only heal me when I get to half health, or If you see me use Internal Release or Berserk don't worry about healing me because I'm going to use Inner Beast soon after. Let them know if they need to take a break for a turn and you have V stacks of wrath they can let your health dip a little lower than usual. Whatever it is your preferences are just let them know. Because what kills warrior is not the healing we fail to get while our health is low its the healing that is wasted when our health is high.

And to the OP. You seem to obviously prefer tanking via mitigation. Which is not a bad thing... its just not what WAR does. Rather than crying to make WAR more like PLD, why not save yourself the headache and level PLD.

As you said yourself in another post. WAR is a viable tank. Is it the best tank for all situations? No. Is PLD the best tank for all situations? No. There is going to be some content that favor a PLD's skill set and there will be others that favor WAR. They are different tanks with different strengths and suit different playstyles. WAR suits mine but from the way you go on about much better PLD is, maybe PLD suits your playstyle better. And it might not be a case of WAR not being compatible with the content but simply WAR not being compatible with what you want in a tanking class.