Defiance still lacking in comparison to Shield Oath

[Junk4Brains]

The inherent problem with this combo and the method you are proposing using is that using Inner Beast results in the loss of the incoming heal buff. Running an average, based on this combo, I'm showing your incoming healing running at .07875 which is a reduction of roughly 50%. Inner Beast is healing for 1000, then the break point for Inner Beast being a positive factor is ~12500 heals from healer (double it for 2000). As I said, I'm not end game, so I don't know how this compares. I expect that Inner Beast is going to be better utilized similar to a CD ability.

Well I am more a fan of simple math. So here is my perspective.
Lets say on average a healer heals you for 1000 health and spams it every 3 seconds. That comes to 20,000 HPR (HP recovery) a minute. 15% of 20,000 is 3000.

Now lets just say you hit Inner Beast for 200 damage. That is 600 health naked. Times 3 that is 1800 HPR. A loss of 1200.

Lets say you have Maim/Storm's Eye up. That 600 becomes 780 or 2340 HPR for a loss of 660.

Now you factor in crits and the 50% bonus from Berserk and well that is when Inner Beast starts showing positive results. So loosing that 15% boost to healing is not the death sentence people make it out to be. Now using raw naked Inner Beasts... not the most productive thing. But even at the low end of the damage spectrum if you have Maim and Storm's Eye up the health lost can be worth it as the spike in damage also means a spike in hate. And the more hate you secure the more rotations you can fill in your Storm's Path combo for added healing.

But lets face it your healer is not going to be spamming cures every 3 seconds and you're not going to be popping off Inner Beasts every 15-20 seconds. I just gave that rotation as an example of of a WAR was capable of. If I had to explain how a WAR is meant to tank, I would have to say the closest example that comes to mind is how a matador 'tanks' a bull. Your goal is to get as close as possible to the danger of defeat and avoid it by as small a margin as possible. In order for this to work the tank needs to have a lot of trust in the healer and the healer a lot of trust in the tank.

What happens though is in PUG's that trust is not always there. Healers aren't always aware of WAR's mechanics or their specific rotation. So when a tank gets to half health they'll use Inner Beast and the healer will hit them with a Cure bomb. And A LOT of that 'healing' is wasted as any healing past max hp is wasted health. And as this goes on the WAR is wasting stacks and the healer is wasting MP and the over all efficiency gets flushed down the toilet.

This is where again. The strongest skill a tank can use comes in to play. Communication! Tell your healers your comfort zones. Like only heal me when I get to half health, or If you see me use Internal Release or Berserk don't worry about healing me because I'm going to use Inner Beast soon after. Let them know if they need to take a break for a turn and you have V stacks of wrath they can let your health dip a little lower than usual. Whatever it is your preferences are just let them know. Because what kills warrior is not the healing we fail to get while our health is low its the healing that is wasted when our health is high.

And to the OP. You seem to obviously prefer tanking via mitigation. Which is not a bad thing... its just not what WAR does. Rather than crying to make WAR more like PLD, why not save yourself the headache and level PLD.

As you said yourself in another post. WAR is a viable tank. Is it the best tank for all situations? No. Is PLD the best tank for all situations? No. There is going to be some content that favor a PLD's skill set and there will be others that favor WAR. They are different tanks with different strengths and suit different playstyles. WAR suits mine but from the way you go on about much better PLD is, maybe PLD suits your playstyle better. And it might not be a case of WAR not being compatible with the content but simply WAR not being compatible with what you want in a tanking class.

[Sephirah]

then whats the reason to play a war if war cant main tanking endgame?

People will roll WAR because there will be fights where their skills at offtanking will be needed. This is a team game and everyone has a role to play. If you want to be main tank, you can with a WAR it will just be harder.. But as many people have stated, if WAR had as much mitigation as a PLD then there is 0 reason to be a PLD, everyone would be WAR. This is not WoW where every class has a different spec that lets it perform the exact same role as another class.

And Faction, I think you are the one hung up on the idea that being off tanks makes them worse. Being offtanks does not mean paladins are the "better" tanks, it just means they are better at being the main tank, Offtanking is still a role that needs to be filled, it's not about one being better than the other, they just have two different things they're good at.

[Hachiko]

And Faction, I think you are the one hung up on the idea that being off tanks makes them worse. Being offtanks does not mean paladins are the "better" tanks, it just means they are better at being the main tank, Offtanking is still a role that needs to be filled, it's not about one being better than the other, they just have two different things they're good at.

I don't know why people keep saying this but it's very ignorant. Everything that makes a job a good tank makes them a good offtank. In fact, WAR is going to be a far worse offtank when against multiple mobs because they won't be able to keep vengeance stacks even if they can keep enmity with flash spam and overpower. But those skills don't stack wrath, which leaves a warrior "off tank" at a significant disadvantage without his/her 15% healing received buff, whereas a PLD always has 20% damage reduction.

Can you give one reason why a WAR would be a better "offtank"?

[hola]

There is going to be some content that favor a PLD's skill set and there will be others that favor WAR. They are different tanks with different strengths and suit different playstyles.

i havent find any dungeon where war can do significant better job than pld.

however, there are many boss fight or content can only be done by pld.

for example, Ampador keep speed run, its super difficult or nearly impossible for war to train mobs before the last boss.

[Derza]

for example, Ampador keep speed run, its super difficult or nearly impossible for war to train mobs before the last boss.

I watched a group do it by clearing the first couple of trash pulls then training from there... It only takes a few mins longer.

[Delorean]

This is not WoW where every class has a different spec that lets it perform the exact same role as another class.

I don't know when the last time you played WoW was, but Warriors/Death Knight mid pack (but DK has niche), Druids are the worst, and Monk/Paladin is indisputably the best. Monks do stupid damage as a tank and have good survivability, Paladins can also do stupid damage and cheese mechanics with bubble.

I mean, I know it's nitpicky, but that really is not an argument. If anything, you are saying the same exact thing that anyone playing World of Warcraft says when a Warrior or Druid complains about their class being bad.

If you want to play a Warrior, then play a Warrior. People can't take something to a raid group that they don't have.

I watched a group do it by clearing the first couple of trash pulls then training from there... It only takes a few mins longer.

thats what i did

[Sephirah]

I mean, I know it's nitpicky, but that really is not an argument. If anything, you are saying the same exact thing that anyone playing World of Warcraft says when a Warrior or Druid complains about their class being bad.

If you want to play a Warrior, then play a Warrior. People can't take something to a raid group that they don't have.

What are you talking about, I'm not complaining about any class being bad, I like how pld and war currently are. And my comment about WoW was not related to balance, it was related to the fact that they design their classes to be interchangable, you can be a tank/heal/dps regardless of your class, and that simply doesn't work here. You can't be a dps or heal paladin, you can only be a tank, that's the only thing it can do, and therefore it needs to do it well, hence the higher mitigation.

[Coramac]

Well I am more a fan of simple math. So here is my perspective.
Lets say on average a healer heals you for 1000 health and spams it every 3 seconds. That comes to 20,000 HPR (HP recovery) a minute. 15% of 20,000 is 3000.

Regeneration is a non-factor. The Paladin damage reduction increases the effectiveness of their regeneration by 25%. It's a wash. Additionally, the break point for efficiency for incoming heal amount for a Paladin vs. Defiance (average uptime) is ~5800. This is before we get to their additional block defense.

As it stands, the numbers seem to indicate that the Paladin would be superior in all tanking situations that are not a DPS race. That might also be false depending whether or not the healer could add additional damage to compensate.

[Junk4Brains]

Regeneration is a non-factor. The Paladin damage reduction increases the effectiveness of their regeneration by 25%. It's a wash. Additionally, the break point for efficiency for incoming heal amount for a Paladin vs. Defiance (average uptime) is ~5800. This is before we get to their additional block defense.

As it stands, the numbers seem to indicate that the Paladin would be superior in all tanking situations that are not a DPS race. That might also be false depending whether or not the healer could add additional damage to compensate.

Had a bit long post typed up. And lost it so just will give the shorter version.

1.)This post you quoted had NOTHING to do with comparing PLD to WAR. It was comparing what WAR gained from holding on to stacks of wrath vs what they gained by using them on Inner Beast. Which boiled down to, if you can get more than 3k health return on your Inner Beasts or close to it. It is better to use Inner Beast. Which naked no buffs was not worth it, with Main and Storm's Eye, it got close. And that was factoring the LOW end of the spectrum with 600 health return from Inner Beast. Most WAR's can get an 800 return in their sleep.

2.) People are thinking too linearly they see PLD's tanking stance and WAR's tanking stance and automatically think they should function similarly towards the same purpose and they DON'T. Warrior's main mitigation tool is NOT Defiance. Defiance is WAR's hate management tool but Inner Beast is what mitigation the most damage for War. So its not a really about Defiance vs Shield Oath. But Inner Beast vs. Shield Oath. Which automatically means to things:
a. Warrior is more gear dependent than PLD. A PLD really only needs to stack defense and let their mitigation do all the work. WAR needs to bolster both their defense and offense to get the most out of their skills.
b. Warrior has healing coming in from TWO sources. If a PLD is over-healed that is not such a big deal since their mitigation is always at work. A WAR's self-heals and a healer's heals can 'step on each other's toes'. If the healer cure bombs before Inner Beast, all that damage Inner Beast WOULD have mitigated via recovery gets flushed down the toilet. If the WAR Inner Beasts before the heal, the MP the healer used to cure that heal gets wasted. So its not that WAR requires more healing but requires more precise healing.

3.) To go through the rest of the skills in a blow by blow:
-Sentinel pretty much = Infuriate. Sure the damage reduction is huge but it only has a 10s window. Infuriate has the same recast and depending on the situation will heal for as much damage as Sentinel Mitigates. In some situations the spike damage will be large enough to give Sentinel the win. In others a lucky crit or lower in-coming damage will give Infuriate/Inner Beast the edge.

-Bulwark pretty much is answered by Featherfoot. Both skills have 15s durations. But one has a 90s recast and the other 180s. So in the time a PLd uses Bulwark once a WAR could have 30s of Featherfoot. Which there are two things to consider a block will negate partial damage while a dodge will take no damage at all. And if a hit can be blocked it can be dodged. So they pretty much balance out here.

-Convalescence and Foresight is a skill they both share. And I will see these both as being balanced. PLD has 10% more healing but WAR has Wrath and/or Mantra at their disposal to balance it out. And while WAR has a 30 second less recast time on Foresight, PLD's native 20% damage mitigation means the added defense has more effective value while its up. And you can throw Awareness in here too. I mean really... 5 second difference is not a lot to write home about.

-Rage of Halone is met by Maim and Storm's Eye. Once negates 10% damage one ensures roughly 30% bonus to your Inner beasts.

-Shield Swipe is a bit of a toss up. In comparison it is matched by Haymaker. But what gives SS the edge is that it is a unique debuff ONLY the PLD can inflict where as with slow both DRG and BLM can inflict the same status. But if neither are doing so, Haymaker does a better job of lessening damage over time and SS does a better job of lessening spike damage.

-Fight or Flight vs. Berserk is also balanced. 30s up time 180s recast vs 20s up time and 5s Pacification and 90s recast. Berserk still has the edge here for two reasons. One 20% more damage and two, it grants an additional stack of Wrath. Meaning your next Inner Beast can be done in 15 seconds rather than 20.

-Which brings us to the big one. Rampart. This is the reason why WAR has to work harder than PLD. Great up time, great mitigation, and a relatively short recast at 90s. Then I'll lump in Cure, Stoneskin, and Flash. Flash is just a great tool not just for hate but the blind adds to mitigation. Cure and Stoneskin by themselves are kind of weak but if you pop Rampart or Sentinel on a target you already have Rage of Halone on. Well during that time the eHP of those skills skyrockets. But if you are noticing a pattern what makes WAR strong is not the upfront value in their skills but the frequency in which they can use them. What WAR has is every single one of their self-heals has a chance to crit and that chance can be augmented for 15s every MINUTE. They have a higher natural regen because of their max heal, so with a different of 1000hp that WAR is getting 400hp a minute for free. And yes, Storm's Path is a small heal but even small heals add up the more you use them. Then you have Second Wind and/or Thrill of Battle. You have an entire 15 seconds more up time of Blood Bath. If you time Berserk right in your rotation you can land 2 'zerk Boosted Inner Beasts before its duration runs out. If Berserk is down you have Vengeance which is often overlooked but is good for another free application of Wrath.

And when you get down to this level of intricacy of gameplay elements that it no longer becomes the effectiveness of a skill that determines its usefulness but the effectiveness of how the skill is used by the person using it that really dictates its value.

And that should be it in a nutshell. I left out Hallowed Ground because I believe WAR should have no answer for that. That is PLD's skill so when WAR's start to get too uppity they can remind them why they are the kings (...and queens) of straight up damage mitigation. If you like active always on the edge of your seat combat roll a WAR if you like to be in control of a fight and tackle content at your own pace forgoing a little action in place of more security roll a PLD. And remember in situations with more than one tank its not about how much one can out perform the other it is about how well they both can work together.

Now if I left anything out feel free to point it out. But I think I covered all the important skills that pertain to tanking efficiency.

[Hachiko]

Now if I left anything out feel free to point it out. But I think I covered all the important skills that pertain to tanking efficiency.

Very good and comprehensive post, but I think it ignores something pretty important, and that is how instances scale and how damage scales in this game in general. Monster damage scales very fast compared to player damage. Auto attacks is Castrum do a lot more than auto attacks at stone vigil, and Auto Attacks in Coil do WAY more than auto attacks from Castrum.

However, WAR damage only increases slightly with weapon upgrades.

Say a fresh 50 WAR is hitting 800 HP heals on inner beast. A geared war with Relic weapon will be hitting what? ~1k assuming the increase is about the same? (not sure because I don't have the relic weapon yet.)

So, going from a fairly weak weapon to a relic weapon is going to net us ~200 more self healing every 17 or so seconds. But that is nothing when compared to how boss damage scales, where even hardmode primals hit for significantly more than that on their auto attacks.

I don't know if that explains it well. But the thing is the damage mitigation of Inner Beast (and to a lesser extent the healing buff from Fury Stacks) scales with PLAYER damage. While the damage mitigation of Shield Oath or other paladin cooldowns scales with MONSTER damage. And since monster damage scales far faster that player damage, that will have a very big impact on how effectively warriors can tank endgame content.

I like that the "flavor" of the classes is very different, and love playing WAR, but tanking efficiency without looking at monster scaling is missing a big part of the picture. And once we get to 24 man instances, I don't see how Inner Beast is even going to come remotely close to being sufficient for main tanking, unless it's a situation where there are 6 bosses that need to be tanked, and each tank has a personal healer.