Combat still too slow. We need a shorter Global Cooldown!

[Hawklaser]

Maybe I am just weird for missing the stamina system the game originally launched with. I find the pacing so far pretty well done, just think the scaling on skill and spell speed might be a bit off as I can see the use of it, but not sure if it is worth heavily stacking it due to how little it seems to affect things, then again it is hard to tell how much of a difference 1 or 2 points in any stat besides Vit and Pie are really making.

[M4Fade]

I can't really answer your question of why not keep 1.23 combat, but I imagine it actually has more to do with FF14 needing to reinvent itself and overhaul everything even if what we had was good. Sucks I know, but I'm also pretty fine with what we got in return. I suspect that what we got was borne out of an idea to make the game more actiony than 1.23 while keeping a strategic turn based feel. So what we already got was made in an appeal and compromise to the "make it twitchy" crowd, and like you said, sacrificed some animation quality. But the twitchy crowd wants to throw it further to their own end of the spectrum and homogenize it until its the same as every other game out there.

And you know, personally I'm not someone who says they "like the slower pace" because actually as a monk the pace is very speedy. At a 2.5 GCD, you weave in non GCD abilities at 1.25s. And when you have 3 greased lightning stacks, it becomes 2s, with 1s inbetweens. It's actually faster than other mmos I can think of, and requires more decision making. It adds of layer to technical skill in execution, and I find myself having to plan ahead sometimes 3 or 4 moves in advance in order to get through my "pipeline" properly.

The GCD pace requires rapid but steady decision making, compared to other games where maybe you can react to something faster because of a shorter GCD, but IMO don't have to make that many decisions.

And while I liked the 1.23 combat, it actually used the usual kind of cooldowns on every ability like other mmos. The fact that ARR mostly doesn't lock you out of abilities after you've used them is MORE like FF and lends itself to decision making. I like where they went in ARR with the idea that most abilities don't have cooldowns but instead just an opportunity cost. If a different developer were doing this the gaming media would be calling it innovative.

What ultimately bothers me here is that people think just lowering the GCD will magically fix everything they don't like about the combat, like that's the only change you'd have to make, and like it wouldn't screw a lot of things over. If you dislike the battle system you're going to have to offer a ton more changes than just lowering the GCD. It makes no sense by itself.

Ah, great post Casker. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

As I said in an earlier post in this thread.. I have come to get used to the new battle system and find myself enjoying it a lot more than I did when I first experienced it. I guess I am just bitter that Yoshida got rid of everything that was good about 1.23 just so he can "reinvent" and "overhaul" everything as you said, which you're probably right about. The new battle system isn't perfect but as you say it sure is different or even perhaps "innovative". A dangerous word, no doubt.

As for the people demanding a lower GCD, yeah, it ain't gonna happen. That would require a major re-balance of... everything!

[Farore]

For me, combat is definitely too slow. For all of you people saying it's just twitchy and makes it lack any kind of thought, you're living behind rose-tinted goggles.

When you have nearly three seconds between each ability use, you have more than enough time to think thrice over what kind of ability you're going to use next, you're in position long before it's even ready to use, and you're already planning the next move. When every move does nearly the same thing, it gets very boring, very fast. In short, it makes the game way too easy to play. There's no sense of actually fighting, rather than watching a movie of one.

Now, when you have 1 - 1.5 second CD on a melee class (spell casters will have different), you are actively thinking, not passively thinking. You have to know what you're going to do well ahead of time, and you have to be ready to act on it right then and there. There's no standing around waiting for your next attack to be available, you're actively attacking your enemy with everything in your arsenal. In PvP, if you have 10 seconds to react to something, it's child's play. If you have 3-5 seconds to react, it's going to hurt a lot more, and you're actually going to be thinking against your enemy and playing against their strategy. To offset the huge increase in TP cost for abilities, we would have to either lower the cost of many abilities, or increase the rate at which TP regenerates, which could be a benefit of Skill Speed. I feel that would make combat flow much smoother and better.

Now spell casters, since they're not moving around as much as a melee is, they'd have a slightly longer GCD, maybe 2 seconds. With cast times and all that, this is really nothing, but it prevents them from loading someone up with DoT effects immediately, and from range. I feel this is fair, since melee has to worry about positioning and all that. You're still moving and playing a bit faster, but it still feels like a spell caster would; slow, strong attacks.

Now I know you're going to say, "Oh but what sets Monks apart then?" Well, how about we change Greased Lightning to be one ability, rather than a stack of three, but make it have the effectiveness of about 2.5 stacks. So the Monk is still fighting faster than the other classes, but now they really are fast, rather than what I'd call normal.

I feel as though combat as a whole needs a major overhaul though. Every class feels like a different flavor of the same thing. We all use TP, we all have abilities that do the same thing, we all have the same positioning... etc. It's just dull, flat and boring. Making each class unique and interesting would definitely help to set combat up a notch. Rather than having every class use an ability from the flank to increase damage, why not make certain skill combos do the same, while other combos do other things. Make the skills themselves feel more unique. Right now, every (melee) class has a: back attack, flank attack (which increases damage) and other similar moves, and they all feel the same. Can you tell me you feel unique as a Lancer or Dragoon using Heavy Thrust, compared to a Pugilist / Monk using Twin Snakes? I sure can't tell the difference, aside from Lancer being able to use the move on will. Give different classes different resources to generate / spend. For example, Monks make use of Chakra according to the description, but I don't see a single move that does. Let Monks build Chakra as they fight, and be able to spend it on powerful moves. Lancers and Dragoons can build up some kind of dragon-related resource, and use that to do special moves like jumping and falling attacks, so on. The classes, right now, are homogenized beyond recognition, and the only difference is their weapon of choice.

Right now, I feel like combat is the weakest part of this game. I love crafting, I love the story, I love the music, the immersion, the environment - everything. But I hate the combat. It is slow beyond anything I feel is reasonable, it is easier than even WoW (and that's saying something), and it's just tasteless. Something needs to be done about it.

I feel that if SE took and adopted the variation and speed of WoW, and combined it with the strategic gameplay of their combat, then this game would be the best there is, and I've no doubt it would last for years to come. As of now, however, I don't see anyone beyond the fanboys and white knights playing for more than a few months. I can already tell I'm getting bored of the combat. Maybe this game just isn't for me, but I have a suspicion that people agree with me. The combat makes this game easy beyond easy, and I've never felt like I was fighting to survive.

That's my two (or several) cents.

[aristo_cbr]

Everyone has a different opinion and preferences. But this is Final Fantasy and it's not an action MMORPG, I would say the pace of the combat is just fine.

[M4Fade]

I feel as though combat as a whole needs a major overhaul though. Every class feels like a different flavor of the same thing. We all use TP, we all have abilities that do the same thing, we all have the same positioning... etc. It's just dull, flat and boring. Making each class unique and interesting would definitely help to set combat up a notch. Rather than having every class use an ability from the flank to increase damage, why not make certain skill combos do the same, while other combos do other things. Make the skills themselves feel more unique. Right now, every (melee) class has a: back attack, flank attack (which increases damage) and other similar moves, and they all feel the same. Can you tell me you feel unique as a Lancer or Dragoon using Heavy Thrust, compared to a Pugilist / Monk using Twin Snakes? I sure can't tell the difference, aside from Lancer being able to use the move on will. Give different classes different resources to generate / spend. For example, Monks make use of Chakra according to the description, but I don't see a single move that does. Let Monks build Chakra as they fight, and be able to spend it on powerful moves. Lancers and Dragoons can build up some kind of dragon-related resource, and use that to do special moves like jumping and falling attacks, so on. The classes, right now, are homogenized beyond recognition, and the only difference is their weapon of choice..

You're right about this. Yoshida can't be happy with how bland or similar the abilities are. No way. The battle system doesn't exactly need a re-work.. the developers need to take another look at the abilities as making them more interesting or "different' would go a long way to making this whole battle system way more enjoyable.

[Kaedan94]

When you have nearly three seconds between each spell use...

You might want to actually play the game and learn how it works before making horribly inaccurate statements. You have 0.5 seconds between each spell use. 2 seconds to cast the spell, during which time the GCD is counting down. And that's reduced when you start using Haste gear.

[Farore]

By spell, I meant ability. If I'm talking about a melee class, you can assume I'm talking about melee moves, right? :P I'll go change that to alleviate confusion.

[casker]

For me, combat is definitely too slow. For all of you people saying it's just twitchy and makes it lack any kind of thought, you're living behind rose-tinted goggles.

Depends on the game IMO. I wouldn't necessarily say WoW is twitchy but I would call GW2 twitchy because of the dominance of chalk-outlined circle spam and the dodge button used to nullify all damage at will. A 1.5s GCD is not inherently bad or twitchy, but if applied to ARR in its current form would just result in a mess.

Now, when you have 1 - 1.5 second CD on a melee class (spell casters will have different), you are actively thinking, not passively thinking. You have to know what you're going to do well ahead of time, and you have to be ready to act on it right then and there.

I'll have to disagree with this. In most 1.5s GCD games your decision making is largely determined by your cooldown rotation. Not to say theres no decision making but its usually something like a rotation with a few decisions here and there. Like a shadow priest setting up his dots and then mindflaying and then using psychic scream when he has to or whatever. Decision making has less to do with the actual length of the global cooldown. Pardon the analogy, I know its not exactly the same, but maybe think chess vs. speedchess. Decision making is apparent in both. What matters is the underlying structure of the game. (and actually, speed chess does become twitchy! lol)

And I think there is a delicate balance here. You are dangerously close to actually describing what is twitchy combat but were careful to emphasize decision making. But I don't think decision making exists just because a lower cooldown exists. To follow the analogy, decision making doesn't exist in speedchess just because its fast. It exists because of the "gameplay," lol. Granted though the speed alters it and changes the dynamic.

Looking at GW2...I played a thief. Sure, I have the capacity to "make decisions" at a 1-1.5s pace (whatever the length was in that game) but because of the gameplay design, it didn't ever matter what I did because the strategy was always shoot, and dodge roll out of circles and that was pretty much it. I could complete all content I partook in (until giving up the game, I did a fair bit of level 80 content too btw) just doing those two things.

The longer cooldown actually stresses decision making more, because if you screw up you have to live with your mistake for a longer period. The opportunity cost for each ability is higher. Whereas in something like WoW, if I want to disarm an opponent, I can attack right after. Thats fine. It's still a decision. But in ARR if I did something like that, maybe it would count for that 2.5 interval, my "turn" if you will. It's a different kind of strategy.

And this is all operating on the assumption that you are doing an ability only every 2.5s. Not true anyway. And if that's how you're playing, you're doing it wrong. Literally. If you are doing everything correct the game can actually be faster than other games. If you're a mage you weave in instant casts, and if you're melee you weave in your various steroids like internal release or whatever. If you're a monk you do things at 2s with 1 intervals. Meaning you can pop 5 abilities in 5 seconds. Or 7 in 7 seconds. Etc. Depending on what you're doing.

shoulder tackle > bootshine > internal release > twin snakes > steel peak > snap punch > howling fist

there is a random 7 attack combo you can do in 7 seconds with 3x GL

Now I know you're going to say, "Oh but what sets Monks apart then?" Well, how about we change Greased Lightning to be one ability, rather than a stack of three, but make it have the effectiveness of about 2.5 stacks. So the Monk is still fighting faster than the other classes, but now they really are fast, rather than what I'd call normal.

I don't think your proposed change here actually does anything to change what sets a monk apart. You're just lowering the skill cap by making it easier to get the full benefit of greased lightning. Keeping up GL is right now one of the things that separates the good monks from the scrub monks.

For example, Monks make use of Chakra according to the description, but I don't see a single move that does. Let Monks build Chakra as they fight, and be able to spend it on powerful moves. Lancers and Dragoons can build up some kind of dragon-related resource, and use that to do special moves like jumping and falling attacks, so on. The classes, right now, are homogenized beyond recognition, and the only difference is their weapon of choice.

Now these are good ideas. But actually this kind of different use of resource management does exist with Thaumaturge. It's just still managed under mana. It just changes the dynamic of how mana is spent. But even then I'd have to question how much it'd really change things, because it actually does exist and yet you're still criticizing it. I could say the same sorts of things about WoW and how damage classes feel homogenized, rogue is like fury warrior is like enhance shammy is like cat druid etc. Just slightly different ways of doing melee damage. In general though I agree that the game needs more interesting abilities, a part of the problem with that is they are mostly sanctioned off for job abilities which you only get at 30+.

I'm also wondering if you are actually a 25 pugilist because I agree its boring, especially through the 20's, but the potential of the class really opens up once you get rockbreaker and demolish at 30 IMO.

[Farore]

You have very good points, Casker. I just feel like the slower-paced combat belongs on a console, whereas quick-thinking and being a bit twitchy belongs on MMO's. I loved Guild Wars 2, and I would probably still be playing it, were it not for how simplistic the game is, and how they pander to ultra-casuals. The only class I ever played was Engineer though, because I never had enough buttons as the other classes. xD

I don't know, I just like having 50 different abilities to choose from, and being able to weave them together real' quickly, and making it work. In Guild Wars, I was always falling behind, letting things sit off CD for a long time before I got around to using them - it was fun. In WoW, I have a multitude of different spells to use for different occasions, and I could weave together all kinds of different effects depending on what I wanted to do. This game, I've never had my rotation messed up, even if the monsters move around a lot, and the moves themselves aren't all that varied, they all kinda do the same thing.


It's just, easy, and it fails to grab my attention for very long. I don't know how else to put it.

[casker]

:S I hate to be one of those "get to level 50 then judge it guys" because I know lower level is extremely boring. Personally I can't go back and do sastasha at all because its so mindnumbingly boring.

But at level 50 monk, all of those things you described applies. I have like 28 abilities. ALL of them are useful, and I can use every single one in a given fight. It is difficult to play a monk to full potential, and if ease of rotation is a metric for quality, well I guarantee your rotation will mess up. A lot.

Since you bring up GW2 - well, since I played a thief I'll describe my experience, I had 5 weapon abilities, 1 heal, 3 electives, and 1 elite skill IIRC. And the elite skills I never found to able to live up to their name. That's 10 skills. Two weapons, the total comes to 15. 15 in GW2 versus 28 in ARR.


GW2 may have had some more varying functionality but the underlying gameplay never offered any reason to care. What matters in GW2 was doing safe damage and dodging circles, so that's all I did in the end. It was of little import that I could go use a combo field to stealth myself because the need for it never arose. Although some of the functionality of moves in ARR can be very samey, ultimately I will stand by ARR in that it has more depth to the gameplay. I have a reasons to use fist of wind over fist of earth or fire and vise versa in certain scenarios. I have reasons to use my steel peak at a certain time, or internal release at a certain time. In GW2 I could just bouncing arrow and dodge my way to victory, and I did it not because I could but because it was just the best course of action. There were literally fights where people were just like "the strategy is run to this one spot so you don't get hit. shoot him for 10 minutes until he dies." "jump on top of this log. dodge when he shakes his fist. shoot him until he dies."