Endgame Summoner -- Garuda

[Nemhy]

That's pretty cool, didn't know that about her. Would you say Summoner DPS after ramp up is strong enough to make for it's shortcomings? My issue/worry is that like Summoner DPS single target is just on par with other jobs. But if that's the case I don't see a reason Summoner would be taken over something else with equal single target but much better add/object handling/clearage. Know what I mean? don't quite know how to explain it

[HiirNoivl]

Not sure what you mean by "after ramp up". Well, here's the thing. Every class has its Strengths and Weaknesses. There are some strong Melee DPS out there no doubt. DRG jumps out at me as one. Summoner's Weakness is it's a squishy mage and death will be hard to recover from. It's damage is spread out over DoTs and Egis.

But when Garuda is gearing up for her big blast, where are the DRGs? Hiding behind rocks. Their DPS is 0. Not even BLM range can reach Garuda when she spawns out of its range. And BLM stops doing any damage as soon as he moves. They NEED Burst DPS to make up for when they're not doing damage.

Who's the only one doing damage, or the one doing the most damage, at that point? SMN. SMN has a burst DPS somewhat. That's what Enkindle is for. And Fester. It's not as high as DRG and BLM because it doesn't have to be. SMN is a multitasker. He can kill adds and DPS the boss out of the corner of his eye. SMN never has to pull off one task to do another. Thanks to DoTs and Egi, he can be all places at once.

For example, During AK, I place my Egi behind a rock and Obey the boss and use DoTs and Shadow Flare. When the adds pop, I have the DoTs on it/them before it can even do any damage on the party and use "Fester". The mob is down before I even have to refresh Shadowflare or the DoTs on the main boss.

The whole time the damage on the boss continues. DRG can't do that, MNK can't do that. Often these DPS checks use adds to try to "distract" Damage dealers from advancing. But the adds drop FASTER with a SMN in the party and DPS never halts on the main target. Then add Enkindle and well... These DPS check tactics completely fail with a SMN in your party.

And of course, Quickcast Raise. There are good reasons to be happy to have a SMN in your Party.

[nimuniverse]

That's what people are not understanding, especially people who say SMN doesn't do damage. They are comparing it to BLM's or DRG's burst skills. It's all about understanding the class. DoTs are always there. I can't count times where I have saved raid with raise when healers are occupied. There were raids where I have raised people 6-7 times on bosses and we ended up winning. There were times I raised healers and healed tank for the duration and that made a win. My DoTs are still doing damage when I am raising and healing people. I have even kited bosses with DoTs cause tanks have died near the end to win. My favorite fights are bosses that spawn adds like Garuda. People complain that SMN doesn't have burst damage to take down adds. They don't understand about the class. Bane the boss to spread DoTs on adds, so simple. No need to chase anything and no need for burst damage. Every class has strength and weakness, learn them. Not just press the button with a skill that does burst. Not all classes are about one or two buttons.
On the side note, what's going on with tanks, especially paladin. I don't see them casting Flash. The most they do is initial flash and that's it. Flash should be in rotation so adds are always on you. It makes everyone's life easier. AoE class can aoe them if you can keep the adds. Tank's job is to keep hate, first and foremost. On my other gladiator char, I have flash in my rotation, it's after every 3-4 skills. I never lose hate even when mages spamming AoE. People need to learn their class.

[Mindcl0ud]

I'm really enjoying seeing this thread - so thanks so much for starting it, and everyone for partaking in it. I think Summoner is one of the more fun classes to play in this game ( granted, I do not have anything else at fifty personally ) but do love the DoTs. I wish the egi's were off the GCD and I could do stuff with them as I was casting.

I'd like to ask you more about Ruin - as I still feel like we'd be missing out on DPS if we stopped casting it. If you have garuda out, and she maxes out the dots, and shadow flare is down, you get a fester Cd of 10 seconds before you can cast something again. I would argue that with using Ruin I - you don't really run out of mana even if you spam it.

I agree with you on Titan, but there are plenty of 4 and 8 man fights where you don't need blind - and if you are on the run Ruin 2 is a great tool for getting a bit more DPS out.

Part 1/2

[Mindcl0ud]

I also would agree with you if you said that Ruin should be re-worked such that there was more of a reason to cast it since the potency is only 80 - maybe 40% chance to refresh all dots on single target, something like that. But I still do think you are better served in a mostly stand still fight ( Tonberry King for example if you are the on to just sit on him ) to be casting as much as you can.

My point being I guess is Ruin is by far the end of a summoners priority list - but it still should be on the list.

Also - Shadow flare is still a good DPS move to drop on single target - just think of it as another DoT that lasts 30 seconds...

Thanks again for the great discussion.

[HiirNoivl]

^__^ I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that SMN is just another DPS. Ruin is... just so... mrgh... Time is so precious and when I have it I usually am assessing my situation, watching my timers, checking my cooldowns, and examining my Egi. I guess I could do that AND cast Ruin, but if I need something to happen when I'm free, I don't' want to have that GCD in the way. That GCD really is what pushes Ruin off my bar, not necessarily because Ruin has no use. If I need to move my Egi, i can't be dealing with my GCD.



Titan I haven't had the practice needed to learn it all with my Main class yet so I haven't tried it with SMN. But after watching some pro-folks play it here's my initial thoughts.

1) You're going to have to place your Garuda Egi on the same outer edge as the tank... Rockslide targets anyone but the tank. Most party members won't be running to that that edge where the tank is to prevent the tank from getting thrown off. If your Egi is there, it's safe From everything but Stomp and Bombs. Maintaining Shadowflare is key here too because not only does Titan not really move around, but neither does his heart. Bane-Fester can be used alternatingly during the heart phase. Enkindle-Aerial Blast will strike both Titan and his heart.

2) Summoner has another advantage. So long as he maintains his DoTs, he won't be hindered if he gets cased in stone. DoTs will probably continue to nibble away at Titan when he disappears off the field too.

3) Maintaining your Egi Alive will be very important so keeping Sustain up won't be optional. Especially that brutal last 25%.

[DNO]

Hello,

Great post but whats the point of using Contagion? was Dots am I transferring to the boss?

[Skies]

Hiir, just one little hint kind lady, because you probably did not notice.
A weaker dot will never overwrite a stronger one. So if you have DoT at 2s duration and it had a +40% buff on it, an unbuffed attempt to dot again will simply yield a failure.

[HiirNoivl]

Hello,

Great post but whats the point of using Contagion? was Dots am I transferring to the boss?

Contagion increases the time of you DoTs by 15 secs. So let's say you want to burn down a boss. Cast Raging Strikes to increase your damage and then put your DoTs on and use Contagion. You'll be dealing a lot of damage this way.

Also, in cases like Garuda where she'll be out of range an extended time after Aerial Blast, it keeps your DoTs from falling off.

Hiir, just one little hint kind lady, because you probably did not notice.
A weaker dot will never overwrite a stronger one. So if you have DoT at 2s duration and it had a +40% buff on it, an unbuffed attempt to dot again will simply yield a failure.

:O Seriously??? Woah! I didn't know that. *phew* I was really stressing out about that. The last thing I wanted to do was overwrite my Raging Strike DoTs.... Well, isn't that nice. ^__^ Contagion Raging Strike is even more powerful than I estimated.

Still, don't get in the habit of overwriting DoT! Keep the hints coming please!

[Sacerdos]

My rough calculations for the DPS loss of not casting Ruin:

You have 24 GCDs in a minute. In a minute, you'll cast 4 Bios, 4 Thunders, 3 Miasmas, 2 Bio 2s, and 2 Shadow Flares, for 15 GCDs total used on DoTs, leaving 9 GCDs for Ruin.

9 Ruins is 720 potency of damage.

4 Thunders and 3 Miasmas flat potency is 4 x 30 + 3 x 20 = 120 + 60 = 180 potency

Total DoT potency a tick is: 40 (Bio) + 35 (Bio2) + 35 (Miasma) + 40 (Thunder) + 25 (Shadow Flare) = 175.

There are 20 DoT ticks a minute, for 3500 DoT potency total over a minute.

3500 DoT potency + 720 Ruin potency + 180 Thunder/Miasma potency = 4400 potency total over a minute, of which ~16.3% is Ruin.

Thus not casting Ruin at all is a loss of ~16% of your DPS.

Edit: Forgot to include Miasma and Thunder's flat damage potency, 30 per thunder and 20 per miasma.