Swoard Oath & Shield Oath

[Inosaska]

Now I know why my SMN keeps pulling hate its because you PLD keep thinking you're DPS class well here is a wake up call don't use sword oath and keep shield oath up because your job is to protect your teammates from taking damage.

[ByakkoSeven]

Now I know why my SMN keeps pulling hate its because you PLD keep thinking you're DPS class well here is a wake up call don't use sword oath and keep shield oath up because your job is to protect your teammates from taking damage.

You probably pull hate because you attack the wrong targets... Idk about everyone else but the only time I use sword oath is on an actual boss fight, when I have a good lead on threat. Have yet to see anyone catch up on threat after switching otherwise I would switch back.

[Inosaska]

You probably pull hate because you attack the wrong targets... Idk about everyone else but the only time I use sword oath is on an actual boss fight, when I have a good lead on threat. Have yet to see anyone catch up on threat after switching otherwise I would switch back.

I'm a dot class and with the current way they have us set up we have a 7.5 sec ramp up time before we even start our full damage. I'm going to tab to the next target and start doing the same thing and the next one too. You have to adjust on what classes are in your party and if you don't want to take the time to do that then there is something wrong with you.

[Kryzen]

It is impossible for any class to pull threat off a PLD ST wise, even without Shield Oath. Our ST aggro rotation once we get RoH just generates a stupid amount of threat. The only way a class can pull threat off a PLD is one of three ways...

1) You are a WAR who just used provoke to cheat your way up
2) DPS hitting the wrong target and you should delete your character for your noobishness.
3) Your PLD just sucks and should delete his character because all he does is auto attack

If you are a DPS and you pull aggro part 2 or 3 just occurred.

edit: to include SMN who tab dot... flash is more then enough to maintain threat vs that and if the PLD looses aggro he should be kicked.

personally i would simply stay in sword oath, at least for pugs. Since a lot of the healers MP is going to the DPS who cant avoid the red it helps them a lot to save on MP when healing the tank. FC run what you want, they go so much smoother and its a ton less effort.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

snip

That being said, you're right about timing it. As a White Mage, I've noticed certain lull periods where everyone is topped off and Stoneskin is up on the tanks. It's during these times, that I may dare switch to Cleric's Stance and cast a few spells. I suspect it is during this same window of opportunity that you'll be able to use Sword Oath with minimal consequence and contribute to ending the fight sooner.

And also as you says, getting the hang of bosses and encounters to recognize these moments to take advantage of them may be part of improving Paladin performance.

[Ariyn]

-snip-

Sorry sir but you are wrong on so many points. Should get to max level before making absurd claims.

1. a WAR with defiance up spamming his same normal rotation will pull threat from a PLD eventually. They do more dmg flat out which equals to more emnity. No need to use provoke at all.
2. DPS hitting the wrong targets can cause a fairly new pld to lose one but in the case of SMNs that's how there dps goes. They multi dot and Flash will not hold hate over it for long.

Sword Oath is good if you are off tanking on a boss that's about it. Even on a boss with the movement, interrupting, etc going on you can have DPS creep up on you. Especially on fights like Ifrit when you are waiting for interrupts. There really is no reason when tanking a boss to not have shield oath on. Sword oath only affects your auto attacks which is minimal AND you cut your emnity in half.

Getting an extra 50 potency on auto attacks (which are garbage altogether) is not worth losing the emnity even if you are far ahead or the 20% dmg reduction. You never know what's going to happen and that 150 dmg you do extra per minute will not make or break any fight in the game. If it does then it's the dps that have an issue not you.

[Thyrllan]

This. I believe it grants 50 potency to auto attacks only unless the tool tip is incorrect.

The tooltip is misleading. It actually causes you to double attack, the second one being for 50 potency. I kept wondering about how much this did, since it never seemed to affect my AA damage. Unequipped all gear and autoattacked mobs. Without sword oath a single number popped up, with Sword Oath on I would get two numbers (46 and 31 for instance).

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

I just lost my post... I hate this Firefox keystroke PG UP. I just... I just wanted to do some quick and dirty math (for fun and giggles).

Okay, try #3.

Dirty math break down in the hidden boxes. It does not calculate the actual damage, it only calculates the "potency". Damage may be factored in by auto-attack damage, weapon damage, Strength, Determination, and other things.

Summary:
A Paladin using a Cobalt Winglet, using the Rage of Halone combo as frequently as possible and auto-attacking a target for one minute, rounding the number of attacks down.

The Paladin in Sword Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 9080 attack potency toward the battle (not actual damage) and generating 12760 potency worth in enmity.

The Paladin in Shield Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 6144 attack potency toward the battle and 18176 attack potency in enmity, while sustaining 20% less damage (healing potency of this not factored).

The Paladin without any Oath (e.g. Gladiator) with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 7680 attack potency toward the battle and generating 11360 potency worth in enmity.

As stated, other weapons with slower delays may translate the potency into higher (or lower) numbers. So, grain of salt yeah? (and it's math sorta, it was fun). The damage difference is equivalent to doing Rage of Halone combo almost five times. Mostly just throwing it out there.

Please note, this isn't a representation of actual damage, but of the "potency" as indicated by a tool tip.
Auto-attack potency = 100 (determined by attacking a testing dummy, then using abilities and deriving the suspected potency of auto-attack that way).
Sword Oath potency = 50
Using a Cobalt Winglet, attack speed = 2.09 seconds per attack
Number of attacks in a minute = 28 attacks, rounding down

Auto-attack potency over a minute = (100 + 50) * 28 = 4200 attack potency (not damage).
Enmity generated over a minute = 4200 attack potency worth in enmity

Assuming that a Paladin is spamming Fast Blade -> Savage Blade -> Rage of Halone (150 + 200 + 260), with an attack potency of 610 every 7.5 seconds.
The number of times a Paladin can pull off this combo in a minute "could" be 8 times.
Savage Blade and Rage of Halone generate x2 enmity based on damage dealt, so enmity of 400 potency and 520 potency.
The combo generates an enmity equal to 1070 attack potency.

Rage of Halone combo over a minute = 610 * 8 = 4880 attack potency (not actual damage)
Enmity of Rage Halone combo over a minute = 8560 attack potency worth of enmity

The Paladin in Sword Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 9080 attack potency toward the battle (not actual damage) and generating 12760 potency worth in enmity.

The Paladin in Shield Oath deals 20% less damage, takes 20% less damage, all actions have x2 enmity. But looking at this from a damage and enmity perspective with SLOPPY unsane math... we have...

Shield Oath impacts all damage by 0.8, but then doubles the enmity generated, so then we have...
Auto-attack with the same Cobalt Winglet that is in desperate need of repair now: 100 * 0.8 = 80
With an enmity generation of x2, so 80 * 2 = 160
Auto-attack potency over a minute = 2240
Enmity generation of auto-attacks = 4480

Then for the Rage of Halone combo, potency is 610 * 0.8 = 488 attack potency.
The enmity potency however is now equal to (150 + 200 * 2 + 260 * 2) * 0.8 * 2 = 1712.
(Fast Blade + Savage Blade's double enmity + Rage of Halone's double enmity) * Shield Oath's reduced damage dealt * Shield Oath's bonus enmity.

Over the course of a minute, the Rage of Halone combo in Shield Oath deals 3904 in attack potency for damage and 13696 in attack potency for enmity.

The Paladin in Shield Oath with a Cobalt Winglet is contributing 6144 attack potency toward the battle and 18176 attack potency in enmity, while sustaining 20% less damage.

[Mishaela]

I'm a dot class and with the current way they have us set up we have a 7.5 sec ramp up time before we even start our full damage. I'm going to tab to the next target and start doing the same thing and the next one too. You have to adjust on what classes are in your party and if you don't want to take the time to do that then there is something wrong with you.

The way they have SMN set up you use Bane to spread your DoTs, not re-cast them on every mob in the pull. If you're not using Bane then there is something wrong with you.

As for tanking for with a SMN in the party, on trash packs after level 30 with an SMN doing proper DoT spread (BioII/Miasma/Bio then use carby/garuda skill to +15s the duration then use Bane), 1-2 uses of Flash while the first target is focus-fired will not hold hate off the SMN for very long.

[Kryzen]

Flash should be rotated every so often though, not just at the beginning of a fight otherwise it wont even hold hate vs a healer.