History repeats itself: Time for the Great Archer Nerf of 2011

[Peregrine]

I see that people, having lost the argument (that we already had years ago, so no surprise there), they petition to not do anything until the battle engine is overhauled.

That is stall tactics. Quickly after the battle engine overhaul comes the raid content, where you all want to play with your archers because it's supposedly going to be difficult. There will probably be powerful AoEs that wipe close-range meleers. By then it is already too late. You will amass your archers and shirk a win, skirt the difficulty, and consider yourselves worthy of a pat on the back for kiting and ranging everything as the solution.

No, archers need balanced during the battle engine overhaul, and they need to come out the other side under the damage of pugilists, marauders, and lancers. 4th best DD for the price of staying at ranged safety is fair. Period. Gladiator's tanking, his damage can be whatever. Thaumas and conj's can both heal, aoe, and damage, so naturally they should come at the bottom of the damage list for those advantages that DO get used.

No point in waiting. Archers need to come out of the other side of that overhaul balanced. So do thaumas. Thaumaturges have no business soloing Great Buffalo. None. Zero. Archers have no business staying out of AoE range and outdamaging people who have to stay within it to damage. Period. Fin.

The conclusions of a 4-year war that archers already lost.

[Shiyo]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

For the sake of argument Peregrine what if you get your wish and Archer gets nerfed and then say LNC becomes the top tier DD will you be making a new thread to nerf LNC?

I personally can't believe how this thread hasn't been locked or deleted yet.

[Duelle]

As soon as the mobs get more varied in tp-moves they do, and the more tactics needed to get things done the more we'll need the different classes. All jobs need adjustments badly atm but i DO hope this will be implemented at least 80-90% in the upcoming battle/class changes.

What the devs need to get through their heads is that players and mobs being on the same ability/skill resource system is a terrible idea. Because the stronger the enemy attacks are, the more bang for your buck you NEED to get per hit of damage to maximize damage and lower the amount of TP gained by the mob. That mistake was made in FFXI where the strategy to kill HNMs like Fafnir was to use as many attacks that did not give it TP as you possibly could. Non-tank survivability is also an issue during such fights, which lead to prevalence of ranged classes. Stuff like that can't repeat itself in this game if we're looking to move forward.

balancing and making all jobs do the same dmg also is stupid in a pve-orientated game.
The differences/hate differences, etc. is what makes a good pve game balanced and fun.

Sorry, but damage jobs NEED to be interchangable. The moment you tip things too far in favor of one class, everyone doing the content that matters starts stacking as much of that class as they can. Pere is being melodramatic but has the general gist of it.

PS: I'm not saying archers should be nerfed, because, again, I don't understand that class well enough to comment. I do know enough about encounters that favor range or melee to know what works where. Healing needs to be easier to do across the board and smart heals need to be introduced. Damage taken by non-tanks have to be kept in mind and within reasonable levels. It's not all just nerf someone's damage and leave everything else the same.

[Peregrine]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

For the sake of argument Peregrine what if you get your wish and Archer gets nerfed and then say LNC becomes the top tier DD will you be making a new thread to nerf LNC?

You can't do anything with a lancer with that power. The title isn't useful if it's on lancer. You can't tell a marauder to get lost. For what...2% parse effectiveness? No, you all are the same. You're brothers. Meleers should all be better DDs than any ranged attacker, because when you put that title on a ranged attacker, they DO something with it--kick the meleers out of the party because they serve no purpose and retain a disadvantage. You don't understand that it's not about being the best on the parser so much as it is negating the use of someone else.

If lancer becomes the top DD, people will not flock to lancer. Marauders, lancers, and pugilists all parse within 2% of each other in party% damage. I know. It's archers who die in the fight, return, fight for minutes while weak...and still come out 5% more damage contribution than the other DDs.

Your argument is supposition without basis.

[Shampooo]

I see that people, having lost the argument (that we already had years ago, so no surprise there), they petition to not do anything until the battle engine is overhauled.

That is stall tactics. Quickly after the battle engine overhaul comes the raid content, where you all want to play with your archers because it's supposedly going to be difficult. There will probably be powerful AoEs that wipe close-range meleers. By then it is already too late. You will amass your archers and shirk a win, skirt the difficulty, and consider yourselves worthy of a pat on the back for kiting and ranging everything as the solution.

No, archers need balanced during the battle engine overhaul, and they need to come out the other side under the damage of pugilists, marauders, and lancers. 4th best DD for the price of staying at ranged safety is fair. Period. Gladiator's tanking, his damage can be whatever. Thaumas and conj's can both heal, aoe, and damage, so naturally they should come at the bottom of the damage list for those advantages that DO get used.

No point in waiting. Archers need to come out of the other side of that overhaul balanced. So do thaumas. Thaumaturges have no business soloing Great Buffalo. None. Zero. Archers have no business staying out of AoE range and outdamaging people who have to stay within it to damage. Period. Fin.

The conclusions of a 4-year war that archers already lost.

If that were the case, archers would have nothing to bring to a fight. Pugilists and mrd have a ton of HP so they can survive close encounters. Lancers have very little HP and are stuck in melee range, however they bring fairly diverse abilities to a fight. Also as of now, normal attacks across all classes do about the same damage on NMs. the only time you see large numbers is in a BR and even they it depends on where you fall inside of the BR.

[Totobi]

What makes this entire thread fail has been stated throughout - THEY AREN'T GOING TO TAKE THE TIME TO NERF A CLASS WHEN THEY ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF REDESIGNING BOTH THE JOBS THEMSELVES AND THE VERY SYSTEMS THEY ARE BASED ON.

With that in mind, continuing this 'debate' is a masturbatory exercise.

This is essential reading for you, Peregrine.

[Xzen]

The only reason I leveled archer was to break the great buffalo's horn. It's easier to take it off with bloodletter than with victimize II. On my pug with the DPS and WS spamming I can do about the same as my ARC and I can tank. So should we nerf pug?

[Neptune]

The topic of nerfing Archers may be a pointless one, but I see two valid points for discussion by Peregrine.

1) Developers beings responsible for the behavior of players
2) Equal opportunity for all classes

Point #1 is important. Developers ARE responsible, through game design, for the behavior of players. So if they create an environment where leaders have no choice but to bring 6 archers and 2 thaumaturges that is a major problem. This is something developers should take an active role in. I think Peregrine is so upset because he thinks the dev team isn't paying attention. So I would like to see, as a result of this thread, the dev team comment that throughout the life of the game they are committed to watching situations like this and making sure they design the game so players are having fun, not getting forced into situations nobody wanted.

As for point #2, I'm not sure we should expect equal opportunity from picking a class. Why not pick something that is satisfying to you to play? If being on even footing with everyone else is the only thing that satisfies you, maybe you should think about the effects that will have on other players before making demands.

Look at Greg Street, the lead systems designer of WoW. For the last several years he has tirelessly balanced classes for WoW and I think anyone that's been paying attention can conclude that it's been a fruitless journey. The endless cycle of nerfs and buffs just aggravates everybody. The dev team is spinning in circles. And the ideas that could have been developed or content that could have been implemented will never be. Class balancing is just one huge nerf to the entire game. So why not be ok with who you are and nerf the need to keep comparing yourself to other people, in light of course, of the conclusion of point #1.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

The only reason I leveled archer was to break the great buffalo's horn. It's easier to take it off with bloodletter than with victimize II. On my pug with the DPS and WS spamming I can do about the same as my ARC and I can tank. So should we nerf pug?

Victimize II doesn'y hit buffalo's horns. That's why you are having a harder time.

[AlexiaKidd]

You can't do anything with a lancer with that power. The title isn't useful if it's on lancer. You can't tell a marauder to get lost. For what...2% parse effectiveness? No, you all are the same. You're brothers. Meleers should all be better DDs than any ranged attacker, because when you put that title on a ranged attacker, they DO something with it--kick the meleers out of the party because they serve no purpose and retain a disadvantage. You don't understand that it's not about being the best on the parser so much as it is negating the use of someone else.

If lancer becomes the top DD, people will not flock to lancer. Marauders, lancers, and pugilists all parse within 2% of each other in party% damage. I know. It's archers who die in the fight, return, fight for minutes while weak...and still come out 5% more damage contribution than the other DDs.

Your argument is supposition without basis.

So you use a Parser to confirm this?