The way Square Enix depicts our characters...are we helpless, or are we heroes?

[Reika]

R60 story mission

NPC: The imperial soldiers burned down Gridania! They raped our woman and killed our children!
Player: ....
NPC: Thanks god, an adventurer! Please avenge my dead family! I have marked a location on your map, please go there and kill a fat dodo!

R 70 Story mission

NPC: The time for our final strike against the Empire came! Tonight we will write History!
Player: ...
NPC: Adventurer! it is good to see you! Please go to Uldah and kill a Dodo.

Blasted dodo's are working for the empire!

[AlexiaKidd]

R60 story mission

NPC: The imperial soldiers burned down Gridania! They raped our woman and killed our children!
Player: ....
NPC: Thanks god, an adventurer! Please avenge my dead family! I have marked a location on your map, please go there and kill a fat dodo!

R 70 Story mission

NPC: The time for our final strike against the Empire came! Tonight we will write History!
Player: ...
NPC: Adventurer! it is good to see you! Please go to Uldah and kill a Dodo.

Lol so true ^^

[SilvertearRen]

That is fine by me.

Thank you for your understanding. I appreciate it.

R60 story mission

NPC: The imperial soldiers burned down Gridania! They raped our woman and killed our children!
Player: ....
NPC: Thanks god, an adventurer! Please avenge my dead family! I have marked a location on your map, please go there and kill a fat dodo!

R 70 Story mission

NPC: The time for our final strike against the Empire came! Tonight we will write History!
Player: ...
NPC: Adventurer! it is good to see you! Please go to Uldah and kill a Dodo.

This is truth. It's kinda demeaning to be sent after some random field mobs when you could be fighting the Empire's field troops instead. But this doesn't exactly cover what this thread is meant to address, guys. It does sum up the problem nicely though!

[Abriael]

And do you think this is how it should be?

For traditional quests, yes. It's how it should be. Traditional quests have a stronger narrative value than public quests *exactly* because they exist in a vacuum, leaving the developer more freedom in storytelling.
That's why even games that have a strong presence of public quests also feature a strong presence of traditional quests.

Public quests are all good and nice, but cannot support a strongly story-driven environment by themselves.

The story still doesn't exist in a vacuum, it is simply separate from the game as a whole.

You basically say "the story doesn't exist in a vacuum, it simply exists in a vacuum"

This is not a good thing or something that should be further enforced

Says who? This is a Final Fantasy MMORPG, complex stories are the very base of Final Fantasy games, and the very reason why many people buy them. Traditional quests have the strongest story-driven component, and in fact that's why they have been chosen as the main storyline tool. Like in every MMORPG out there, no matter how sandboxish.

The best case would be that everyone gets to participate in the story as that would stay completely true to the concept of an MMO, but you are asking for the opposite to happen.

The presence of strongly story-driven traditional quests is not in any way incompatible with the presence of public quests. There are plenty games that feature both out there, and they work great together.
Traditional quests are always chosen as the main storytelling tool simply because they have more storytelling potential and freedom.

hile the stories are already quite separate from the game, they are not completely so because the story recognizes that you are not alone in the game, even if you are alone in the story. And you want the story and the game to be completely separate, and that simply goes against what any sensible MMO developer should be aiming for- a story that is shared with everyone.

The current story does not recognize in any way that the same story is played by other people. Simply because there's *no way* to include that factor in any story-driven environment, unless everyone interacted with completely different NPCs, in a different way, with different events and so forth. It simply doesn't happen. Everyone interacts with the same NPCs, has exactly the same events happening to him, exactly the same things are told to him and so forth. There's absolutely no logical way for tis to happen unless each story happens in a complete vacuum, and it does *already*.

Right now the situation is not perfect, but you are making it even worse with your suggestions.

No. My suggestion doesn't change the compatibility situation *at all*. The story of every quest already exists in a vacuum. The stories played by others aren't recognized at all in each player's story. They simply do not happen. No matter how boring and unfun the role of the player character is.

Betelgeuzah, Abariel, your discussions aren't exactly helping the thread. You guys seem to be going around the actual issue here: The depiction of your character in cutscenes.

Actually my argument is directly related to the depiction of our character in cutscenes. Betelgeuzah opposes giving our character more screen time and a larger/better role (which is what you want, if I'm not wrong) with the sole flawed argument that there are "thousand of people" in the game.
I'm dismantling that argument exactly to support yours.

I would definitely say it's in-topic.

[Betelgeuzah]

No. My suggestion doesn't change the compatibility the situation *at all*. The story of every quest already exists in a vacuum.

It doesn't exist in a vacuum. The story recognizes that you are only one of the tens of thousands of people inhabiting the world and thus one of the many that are a part of the storylines that take place. That makes it more of a part of the game than any other MMO with traditional storytelling. You simply want to remove that last aspect that keeps the stories at least somewhat plausible within the MMO gameworld.

Nothing else needs to be said. You refuse to acknowledge this fact, and until you do, there is no need to continue any further.

[SilvertearRen]

Actually my argument is directly related to the depiction of our character in cutscenes. Betelgeuzah opposes giving our character more screen time and a larger/better role (which is what you want, if I'm not wrong) with the sole flawed argument that there are "thousand of people" in the game.
I'm dismantling that argument exactly to support yours.

I would definitely say it's in-topic.

While I agree with your assessment, it's both sides' unwillingness to compromise on the debate that I find problematic, and it leads to a tit-for-tat argument that doesn't help the thread's integrity. The reality is, both of you are correct.

Betelgeuzah is correct in saying that the story of FFXIV recognizes your individual character as "one of tens of thousands of people inhabiting the world", and this does make the stories plausible.

I don't want to be depicted as a "lone hero" in a MMO. That's definitely a conundrum: As such, a solution would be to treat us as among the more experienced of adventurers in XIV where we would know how to react in situations beyond the grasp of the average treasure-hunter and gil-pinching adventurer.

An example: The average Lalafell pirate from Limsa Lominsa would drop everything and run like hell if faced with fighting Leviathan himself! But would we, the grizzled and experienced adventurer who has faced down the likes of Sand Piestes, the undead soldiers of the past, battled the voidsent and scalekin of Coerthas, survived an encounter with a Garlean Legatus (R46 Futures Perfect), and escaped the wrath of a Garlean Behemoth (R46 Futures Perfect, too), back down from a challenge by a Primal!?

Hell no. We'd kick his ass.

[Abriael]

It doesn't exist in a vacuum. The story recognizes that you are only one of the tens of thousands of people inhabiting the world and thus one of the many that are a part of the storylines that take place. That makes it more of a part of the game than any other MMO with traditional storytelling. You simply want to remove that last aspect that keeps the stories at least somewhat plausible within the MMO gameworld.

Nothing else needs to be said. You refuse to acknowledge this fact, and until you do, there is no need to continue any further.

There's no fact of yours to aknowledge. There's no aspect to remove (except utter boredom and flatness, which in no way contributes to anything).
Every player meets exactly the same NPCs, they tell him exactly the same things, they fight in front of him in exactly the same way, against exactly the same element. There's no logical continuity between this and the *same* story that happens down to every single world to everyone else.
Ergo, the story exists in a complete airtight vacuum, no matter how much you try to argue against it. The fact that the player is portrayed as a random dullard is no aknowledgement of that. There are no multiple dimensions in FFXIV. The same exact facts cannot happen to tens of thousands of people, no matter if they're heroes or dullard.
The only explanation of that is a story that happens in a vacuum for everyone. And that's story can be as heroic as any single player one.
It's that simple.

All you're arguing forum is a more boring and less involving story in the name of some arbitrary, hazy concept that simply doesn't exist in the game.

Betelgeuzah is correct in saying that the story of FFXIV recognizes your individual character as "one of tens of thousands of people inhabiting the world", and this does make the stories plausible.

It really doesn't. There's no plausibility in the same facts happening in the same way with the same NPCs to thousands of people, no matter if they're heroes or dullards.

I don't want to be depicted as a "lone hero" in a MMO.

Nor do I, One of the heroes is plenty fine. The problem is that we're depicted as random dullards, and that's extremely counterproductive to the enjoyment of the story.

[Betelgeuzah]

I don't want to be depicted as a "lone hero" in a MMO. That's definitely a conundrum: As such, a solution would be to treat us as among the more experienced of adventurers in XIV where we would know how to react in situations beyond the grasp of the average treasure-hunter and gil-pinching adventurer.

I like the "being more experienced as you progress further" idea. The stories can show that we have gotten stronger, as we have, and that doesn't take away from the fact that many others have gotten stronger as well. It fits.

There's no fact of yours to aknowledge. There's no aspect to remove

If you have nothing to say, why say anything? You keep circling around the fact that the story makes you seem like an ordinary adventurer among everyone else that you are and will be regardless of what happens. You said nothing that would go against this fact, and you won't.

So there's no need to continue. Let go.

[SilvertearRen]

Snip.

The discussion between you and Betelgeuzah is done. It's over. Please refrain from further pressing the argument. I ended it for the both of you, and I'd appreciate it if you'd respect the thread's integrity going forward.

[SilvertearRen]

I like the "being more experienced as you progress further" idea. The stories can show that we have gotten stronger, as we have, and that doesn't take away from the fact that many others have gotten stronger as well. It fits.

It does fit. Right now, we're only faced with a Rank 50 cap in the game. I imagine that if Square Enix plans on showing more cutscenes in a new storyline arc, I'd appreciate it if they'd show our characters, which would be past R45 by the time the new content comes, as competent adventurers ready for a fight.

And I don't mean like raring to go - I mean in the sense that we can defend ourselves against our opponents, regardless of the power divide.