The way Square Enix depicts our characters...are we helpless, or are we heroes?

[Abriael]

There is only select few "heroes" in the storyline. Not you and 20 000 people like you. The storyline being portrayed from a "single player game's" PoV is not the potential issue here. The heroes are the same for everyone, thus there are no tens of thousands of heroes, because that is silly. The people you play with and see every day can not all be the heroes. The heroes must be something special and unique, otherwise they cease to be heroes. In single player games this is true. In the storytelling method XI and XIV uses, this is true. In other MMO's, there are tens of thousands of heroes. If you can't see the difference, I feel sad for you, mr. Hero #12548.

You can feel sad for anyone you like (lol at this completely empty flamish statement), but you continue to purposedly miss the point. Those "tens of thousands of heroes" do *not* exist in each player's personal questing world. You don't have "tens of thousands" of people talking exactly with the same NPCs, doing exactly the same things, acting in exactly the same way, visiting exactly the same place. It does't make the slightest sense in a shared world, wether they are "heroes" or not.
That's why, for every traditional quest in every MMORPG out there, the "tens of thousands" you continue to bring forth as a mantra simply do *not exist* in the storytelling. They are completely inconsequential.

nope
just
you.

You don't have very clear the difference between "any" and "every". Portraying *any* character as a dullard that has absolutely no pesonality is simply bad storytelling.

Single player storytelling in an MMO environment. How hard is it to understand the difference?

There's no difference at all. The storytelling in *every* traditional quest in *every* MMORPG is seen from an *exclusively* single player point of view. It exists and develops in each player's screen completely detached from everyone else's. There's no way to make the story make the slightest sense otherwise (and that's why developers never even waste resources trying).
Take any traditional quest in any MMORPG and you could easily transition it to a single player RPG without making any change. The same goes from the other way around. The distinction you're trying to make to prove a rather false point simply does not exist.

Mind you, it's much more fun and involving to be mr. Hero #12548. tha to be mr. Passerby random dullard #12549.

[Betelgeuzah]

Those "tens of thousands of heroes" do *not* exist in each player's personal questing world

Too bad the game is *more* than the "players personal questing world" (that only exists in cutscenes). You are the one missing the point here. You can be all by yourself in that little cutscene world of yours, but once it ends you are inhabiting the vast world around us with thousands of other people. People that are all "heroes", as was said in the cutscene from a minute back. As much as you'd like for this game to be your own personal sandbox, this doesn't change the fact that you exist with thousands of other people, unlike in a single player game. And that's the reason why the story can not be told in the exact same way as in a single player story, even if it can have many similarities.

Portraying *any* character as a dullard that has absolutely no pesonality is simply bad storytelling.

Like I said,

nope
that's
just
you.

I continue to be myself in the MMO where I create my own story, but if you portrait yourself as a dullard with no personality... well, I won't argue.

mr. Passerby random dullard #12549.

Yes, that's what I am. In a world filled with tens of thousands of people like me, I can not be the hero. And even if the story tells you how unique little pretty pink snowflake you are, you are still no less of a random passeryby dullar than I am.

[AlexiaKidd]

I don't think there is a reason your character could not be a "hero" in the Class Missions. I think one of the problems with the Story Missions for cutscenes would be they would have to animate out the fight for each class, which would be really cool but would require a bit of extra work. The Class Missions however they already know what class you are so can make the animation work for that class easily.

[Abriael]

Too bad the game is *more* than the "players personal questing world" (that only exists in cutscenes). You are the one missing the point here. You can be all by yourself in that little cutscene world of yours, but once it ends you are inhabiting the vast world around us with thousands of other people. People that are all "heroes", as was said in the cutscene from a minute back. As much as you'd like for this game to be your own personal sandbox, this doesn't change the fact that you exist with thousands of other people, unlike in a single player game. And that's the reason why the story can not be told in the exact same way as in a single player story, even if it can have many similarities.

Yes, that's what I am. In a world filled with tens of thousands of people like me, I can not be the hero. And even if the story tells you how unique little pretty pink snowflake you are, you are still no less of a random passeryby dullar than I am.

Too bad that we're talking about the story here, and the fact that the story is shown from an exclusively single player point of view means that when the story unfolds on our own screen, we can be portrayed as whatever.

Whether we are portrayed as heroes or as random dullards the *single player driven* quests will *always* be 100% incompatible with the "tens of thousands of people". There's no contact point. Single player story and massive environment are *always* completely detached.

Again, you miss the fact that it doesn't make the slightest sense to have the same wounded hunter ask for the same 10 bear pelts to every single one of the "tens of thousands".
No matter how simple the story element is. Traditional quests are always incompatible with the massively multiplayer environment, and as such happen only in each player's "personal sanbox".

The story is *already* unfolding in each player's "personal sandbox". Like every quest-driven story in every MMORPG out there. That's the simple, undeniable fact that you continue to miss, probably purposedly, since it makes your shaky card castle collapse onto itself.

[Betelgeuzah]

Too bad that we're talking about the story here

Too bad we are talking about the story in an MMORPG. The story does not exist in a vacuum. It is a part of the game as a whole and thus needs to fit in there. Making it separate is by no means sensible idea.

The story is *already* unfolding in each player's "personal sandbox". Like every quest-driven story in every MMORPG out there. That's the simple, undeniable fact that you continue to miss, probably purposedly.

You keep saying this like you think it matters. It is irrelevant. It was, it is, and it will be in the future.

[Abriael]

Too bad we are talking about the story in an MMORPG. The story does not exist in a vacuum. It is a part of the game as a whole and thus needs to fit in there. Making it separate is by no means sensible idea.

*Beep* Missed the evident point again.
The story in EACH traditional quest in each MMORPG out there, including this one *already* exists in a vacuum. It's already separate, whether you consider it "sensible" or not.

The wounded hunter doesn't want to open a bear furcoats factory. In the story continuity he doesn't ask for the bear pelts to tens of thousands of people over and over. It simply doesn't make the slightest logical sense. The more the quest gain complexity over this simple example, the more completely illogical it becomes, unless the story is seen in a complete vacuum. And that's why it is, everywhere.

You keep saying this like you think it matters. It is irrelevant. It was, it is, and it will be in the future.

Because you say so? LOL.

[SilvertearRen]

Too bad we are talking about the story in an MMORPG. The story does not exist in a vacuum. It is a part of the game as a whole and thus needs to fit in there. Making it separate is by no means sensible idea.



You keep saying this like you think it matters. It is irrelevant. It was, it is, and it will be in the future.

While I may understand your perspective against the idea of what the original post is trying to propose, your discourse here has not produced anything concretely constructive that anyone can take at face value.

The point of this thread is to make it clear that players whose characters are experienced in the way of combat should be depicted as such, not standing about as slack-jawed gawpers as a battle unfolds before them like they're greenhorns. The majority of the posters in this thread thus far have concurred with this notion, expressing the desire that their characters be given the same level of respect as the other central characters in each story.

Essentially, like I said before up to now, and most likely into the future, Square-Enix has been treating us as a "third-fiddle". That is to say, we are being treated as characters whose cinematic worth is essentially zero. Many of us don't like that.

[Betelgeuzah]

The story in EACH traditional quest in each MMORPG out there, including this one *already* exists in a vacuum. It's already separate, whether you consider it "sensible" or not.

And do you think this is how it should be?

The story still doesn't exist in a vacuum, it is simply separate from the game as a whole. This is not a good thing or something that should be further enforced, as you seem to want. The best case would be that everyone gets to participate in the story as that would stay completely true to the concept of an MMO, but you are asking for the opposite to happen. While the stories are already quite separate from the game, they are not completely so because the story recognizes that you are not alone in the game, even if you are alone in the story. And you want the story and the game to be completely separate, and that simply goes against what any sensible MMO developer should be aiming for- a story that is shared with everyone.

Right now the situation is not perfect, but you are making it even worse with your suggestions.

The point of this thread is to make it clear that players whose characters are experienced in the way of combat should be depicted as such, not standing about as slack-jawed gawpers as a battle unfolds before them like they're greenhorns.

That is fine by me.

[SilvertearRen]

Betelgeuzah, Abariel, your discussions aren't exactly helping the thread. You guys seem to be going around the actual issue here: The depiction of your character in cutscenes.

We're not talking about the idea of the storylines being separated from the game world, or part of it; that is something that has no real bearing on how your character gets depicted. The real decision-maker in how your character is shown, lies with both the cinematic director and the storywriter, but it is mostly the cinematic director that's responsible for the execution.

That said, you guys should consider instead of arguing with each other and "missing" each other's points, the concept of properly treating the players' characters with the respect equal to how Square-Enix treats most of their central characters in their Final Fantasy stories.

I don't need to explain more than that, as this is purely a depiction issue. Like I described in the original post, I'm interested in seeing my character actually defend herself from attack, and actually be shown as a competent warrior against her adversaries - in cutscenes, mind you. Not standing about like a cowardly gawper and getting her tail "saved" by a bunch of NPCs, as has been the norm in FFXI and XIV.

[Randis]

R60 story mission

NPC: The imperial soldiers burned down Gridania! They raped our woman and killed our children!
Player: ....
NPC: Thanks god, an adventurer! Please avenge my dead family! I have marked a location on your map, please go there and kill a fat dodo!

R 70 Story mission

NPC: The time for our final strike against the Empire came! Tonight we will write History!
Player: ...
NPC: Adventurer! it is good to see you! Please go to Uldah and kill a Dodo.