Preparing for Battle/Job system

[Jinko]

Problem is many are looking at this from the perspective of FF11, lets look at it from the perspective of pretty much any other MMO or RPG out there, if you are a Ranger in Rift you don't get to heal, if you are a Hunter in WoW you don't get to heal, does it make the class any less entertaining no it means you are specialised at what you do.

The survivability needs to be there. Without it, you could very well just cock block most melee classes to progress unless they find a healer to group with. The survivability could be less effective, actually, that is the case now. However, removing it would be more of a head ache to the melee who want to progress or farm mobs solo.

I'm all for solo play, but at the end of the day MMO's are community games and you're supposed to play them together, your post just proves my point in that if you are unable to survive on your own you need to get help.

[Cairdeas]

Problem is many are looking at this from the perspective of FF11, lets look at it from the perspective of pretty much any other MMO or RPG out there, if you are a Ranger in Rift you don't get to heal, if you are a Hunter in WoW you don't get to heal, does it make the class any less entertaining no it means you are specialised at what you do.

In Wow you are a CLASS defined by your choice of Role.

In XIV your a Character defined by your EQUIPPED SKILLS. Your Weapon is just how you learn and use them.

The JOB System would implement Assigned ROLES for a user by enhancing the abilities needed by the CHARACTER to perform said Role.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

Problem is many are looking at this from the perspective of FF11, lets look at it from the perspective of pretty much any other MMO or RPG out there, if you are a Ranger in Rift you don't get to heal, if you are a Hunter in WoW you don't get to heal, does it make the class any less entertaining no it means you are specialised at what you do.

and that works for their system. I think each class having a specific ability or spell for it's own survivability works in this game. If it is too powerful, it's a balancing issue and not a issue of if they should have the ability or not. Also, in those games you only have the option of leveling one class, or in rift's case, a build of classes and then it's done for in a sense.

Final Fantasy XIV, you have the ability to rank in any class on one character. It is logical to it's system to be able to use spells/abilities cross class.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

I'm all for solo play, but at the end of the day MMO's are community games and you're supposed to play them together, your post just proves my point in that if you are unable to survive on your own you need to get help.

Actually, it just proves that you want to turn the game back into XI where people would just stand around in town til a healer leveled into their range and were looking to group. I'm not saying that everything should be done solo, but the option does need to be there. Like it or not, people enjoy casual MMO'ing. In fact, it's growing in popularity and the days of hitting a wall in progression and discouraging casual players is ending as the play-style grows.

This comes back to balancing issues. Should a solo player gain more skill/exp per hour than a group? Nope. Do they right now? Not entirely, but some classes make ranking easy when solo. If the player wants to rush their way up the progression latter he/she should feel the most viable option would be to group up. For a player who doesn't mind the rate of their progression should be able to solo and have the ability of survivability. See what happens? Both parties are happy and it's not a very extreme idea that holds a lot of unbalancing issues and we're not irrationally taking all forms of survivability away from players.

I think it's kind of condescending to the casual player base by saying they are not good enough to play an MMO if most cases than not they have to solo for a small amount of time. This is the problem with what you want out of an MMO, it shuts the majority of players out. We would like the game to succeed, Right?

...right?

It still doesn't change the fact that Yoshi-p hinted that he wants more specialisation/uniqueness between classes.

I guess we will see how he does this but I'm just hoping that the job system is something which restricts the role of a class and makes it more unique, instead of making it more diverse and watering them down more than they already are.

Restricting the class does not make them unique. Unless, unique to you means to be totally useless or co-dependent to other classes. You don't have to take away survivability from one class to make another unique. It's unique in it's ability to perform it's task. If all forms of survivability were equal, then yes, that would then make the class that specializes in healing less unique.

Again, balancing issues.

[Jinko]

Actually, it just proves that you want to turn the game back into XI where people would just stand around in town til a healer leveled into their range and were looking to group. I'm not saying that everything should be done solo, but the option does need to be there. Like it or not, people enjoy casual MMO'ing. In fact, it's growing in popularity and the days of hitting a wall in progression and discouraging casual players is ending as the play-style grows.

This comes back to balancing issues. Should a solo player gain more skill/exp per hour than a group? Nope. Do they right now? Not entirely, but some classes make ranking easy when solo. If the player wants to rush their way up the progression latter he/she should feel the most viable option would be to group up. For a player who doesn't mind the rate of their progression should be able to solo and have the ability of survivability. See what happens? Both parties are happy and it's not a very extreme idea that holds a lot of unbalancing issues and we're not irrationally taking all forms of survivability away from players.

I think it's kind of condescending to the casual player base by saying they are not good enough to play an MMO if most cases than not they have to solo for a small amount of time. This is the problem with what you want out of an MMO, it shuts the majority of players out. We would like the game to succeed, Right?

...right?



Restricting the class does not make them unique. Unless, unique to you means to be totally useless or co-dependent to other classes. You don't have to take away survivability from one class to make another unique. It's unique in it's ability to perform it's task. If all forms of survivability were equal, then yes, that would then make the class that specializes in healing less unique.

Again, balancing issues.

Firstly don't make me out to be some FF11 loving hardcore, you couldn't be further from the truth, secondly lets not twist eachothers words.

I already said I like to solo and I like the casual aspect of most modern MMO's but this doesn't mean that I want to be some crappy super class that has no uniqueness, which is what FFXIV currently feels like to me, there is a good reason why the game is so easy and that's because everyone can do everything, a frikkin THM tanking Dodore ?? seriously ? thats just as bad as RDM tanking HNM's back in the day.

Standing around in Jeuno LFP was SE's fault for not providuing good enough tool to make a party, that "hopefully" won't happen in this game as they are already suggesting they have plans to make an auto group system.

[Cairdeas]

Firstly don't make me out to be some FF11 loving hardcore, you couldn't be further from the truth, secondly lets not twist eachothers words.

I already said I like to solo and I like the casual aspect of most modern MMO's but this doesn't mean that I want to be some crappy super class that has no uniqueness, which is what FFXIV currently feels like to me, there is a good reason why the game is so easy and that's because everyone can do everything, a frikkin THM tanking Dodore ?? seriously ? thats just as bad as RDM tanking HNM's back in the day.

Again this is a matter of Opinion.

In my personally Opinion (And SE's for a long time), Ninja shouldn't be tanks. But with the way skills worked and the way players played the job it was a tank.

Beastmaster doesn't tank very often if at all in XI. But it has the stats, gear, and with /war it has the hate control.
It actually makes an Awesome tank (I know I've done it.) But most people don't.

Again the choice should be there for anyone to do anything, it should be up to the player to decide if they want to do it or not.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

Firstly don't make me out to be some FF11 loving hardcore, you couldn't be further from the truth, secondly lets not twist eachothers words.

I already said I like to solo and I like the casual aspect of most modern MMO's but this doesn't mean that I want to be some crappy super class that has no uniqueness, which is what FFXIV currently feels like to me, there is a good reason why the game is so easy and that's because everyone can do everything, a frikkin THM tanking Dodore ?? seriously ? thats just as bad as RDM tanking HNM's back in the day.

I do not know you. I just go off of what I've read and base my reply on what closely relates to what you're trying to say.

It does not surprise me that what I'm trying to instill in your brain isn't getting through to you, but that is okay. It's just lodestone forums. Everything you listed goes along with what I'm saying to you. What you are pointing the blame at has nothing to do with uniqueness, they are balancing issues.

Every class is going to find it's equivalent "Dodore tanking" exploit at some point. Balancing issues. Didn't hear me the first five times?

Balanncing issues.

Say it with me, Balancing issues. Less freedom is not a next gen MMO make.

Lastly, unique to some people could mean the visuals to them. Let's not forget the people who think they are getting something different because of how awesome it looks. Pugilist's Simian Thrash could do the same damage as another cool weapon skill on another class. Does it make it unique? Depends on who you ask.

It's a combination of visuals and balancing issues.

[Kailok]

Actually, it just proves that you want to turn the game back into XI where people would just stand around in town til a healer leveled into their range and were looking to group. I'm not saying that everything should be done solo, but the option does need to be there. Like it or not, people enjoy casual MMO'ing. In fact, it's growing in popularity and the days of hitting a wall in progression and discouraging casual players is ending as the play-style grows.

This comes back to balancing issues. Should a solo player gain more skill/exp per hour than a group? Nope. Do they right now? Not entirely, but some classes make ranking easy when solo. If the player wants to rush their way up the progression latter he/she should feel the most viable option would be to group up. For a player who doesn't mind the rate of their progression should be able to solo and have the ability of survivability. See what happens? Both parties are happy and it's not a very extreme idea that holds a lot of unbalancing issues and we're not irrationally taking all forms of survivability away from players.

I think it's kind of condescending to the casual player base by saying they are not good enough to play an MMO if most cases than not they have to solo for a small amount of time. This is the problem with what you want out of an MMO, it shuts the majority of players out. We would like the game to succeed, Right?

...right?

I'm changing the subject just a LITTLE

I agree the game (not currently, but overtime) should help casual players, but they need to bow to both sides. As far as the leveling system goes, I believe the cross-server dungeons WOULDN'T work, however if they localized the group queue's to each server independently, it will give everyone a chance to 1) meet new people 2) server pride 3) risk of making a bad name for themselves so they behave a bit more.

As for the class system, I'd like it if each class had it's own healing ability with a long cooldown timer (Except WHM-esque players). For example, say every 10 minutes an Archer could shoot magic arrows into the sky and AoE heal your party members, but the heal would lower depending on how many people are in the party. It helps your party out, but you have to know WHEN to use it. It gives everyone a bit more usefulness, but at the same time Healers don't lose their effectiveness/importance in the game.

[BlaiseLallaise]

Problem is many are looking at this from the perspective of FF11, lets look at it from the perspective of pretty much any other MMO or RPG out there...

I think this is one of the biggest problems with most of the discussions in the forums. People draw conclusions by looking at their experiences with other MMOs, since that is what they know and are familiar with. Discussing topics about FFXIV is most effective when done from the perspective of FFXIV. Does my argument make sense with respect to the current state of FFXIV? I get the feeling that people tend to forget to ask that to themselves. I'm all for gathering inspiration from and drawing parallels to other MMOs, but to base an entire argument on what existed or worked in another game is where arguments fall flat.

But of course, I'm not accusing anyone of doing that here. It's just one of those strong feelings I have. That is all for my thread derail. Proceed.