So 1.0 owners have to start paying the monthly fee immediately?

[Vergil_Renata]

CAKE!!!

/hijackthread

[Goufunaki]

[Abriael]

considering that we are always morally obligated to deliver bug reports and give feedback even after a game is released

Not really, we're not. Once the full game is out we're customers, not testers. A customer has no "moral obligation" to help the developer/publisher in any way, nor to ever to visit the forums to give any form of feedback or to even touch the bug reporting form. A customer's only obligation is to play and enjoy the game.

Ever amazed by the semantic somersaults some will pull to try and justify a false point.

[Xandir]

Not really, we're not. Once the full game is out we're customers, not testers. A customer has no "moral obligation" to help the developer/publisher in any way, nor to ever to visit the forums to give any form of feedback or to even touch the bug reporting form. A customer's only obligation is to play and enjoy the game.

Ever amazed by the semantic somersaults some will pull to try and justify a false point.

So if Yoshida-san personally says that in B3 people are playing with the expectations that it is a trial version, you would accuse him of lying? Just so that we are perfectly clear in the point you are trying to make.

[SkyeWindbinder]

[Abriael]

So if Yoshida-san personally says that in B3 people are playing with the expectations that it is a trial version, you would accuse him of lying? Just so that we are perfectly clear in the point you are trying to make.

If Yoshida-san comes and says that the sky is purple with green polka dots, I'm sure not going to start believing that the sky is purple with green polka dots.

As much as I like the man, he's not infallible, nor immune from criticism. The argument "Yoshida says it so it must be true" doesn't hold much water.

I see you brought your alt back to flame, gonna bring the other alt as well?

[Fatestorm]

considering that we are always morally obligated to deliver bug reports and give feedback even after a game is released, it is actually quite accurate to use the specific definition of 'free trial' Duuude007 is presenting (A test of a product, at no additional cost to the player) to equate betas to free trials.

This is a bit of a stretch. S-E would certainly appreciate its players to report bugs they encounter during the game; they aren't under any obligation to do so, morally or otherwise. They are bound by terms of service not to exploit bugs, and it would certainly be a neighborly thing to do (to report bugs), but nobody is getting their account banned just because they found a bug and decided just to log out and come back later rather than file a bug report.

Now, in a Beta, things are rather different. Yoshida said what is true--many people playing in Beta flat out--not just beta Phase 3--are treating the beta like an advance release. It ought not be this way--everyone in beta ought to have read the terms that they all agree to at the start of a beta test, which always says that the game isn't a finished product, that their feedback is indispensable to the success of the game. This of course is not to affirm the opposite: you don't have to act like you're at work either. But the whole point of a beta is for the feedback, and that you're not just playing the game SOLELY for your own personal entertainment.

Eh well enough, I don't even know why I'm arguing about this. Again I think it's a bit excessive to act in a Beta like you're a paid employee of SE when you aren't--but it greatly vexes me when people play development betas and act like it's an exclusive early access just for them.

Here's another analogy: winemaking. During the fermentation and aging process, you drink the wine plenty of times. It's not done yet, it's not the finished product, but you constantly have to test, taste, regulate, etc. Now, as part of some promotional campaign, a vineyard might invite its special customers to see "behind the scenes" how their favorite wine is made, get to taste the young wines before being put into barrels, and so forth. This is all great--but none of it amounts to a winetasting--an occasion when a finished vintage is brought out and given to a group to sample and taste; hopefully to praise, hopefully to enjoy, and hopefully to purchase for many years in the future.

That is my opinion of the difference between a beta and a free trial.

[SkyeWindbinder]

(sigh)...

Okay, enough is enough...

Seriously, this argument has gone on for far too long. I've tried ignoring it myself, but this is ridiculous. Look, I personally don't see any form of beta being the same thing as a free trial. Nor have I seen any evidence that Yoshi or anyone else does either. (I have yet to see one of them quoted as saying such.)

With that in mind, it's not really that big a deal even if we don't get a free trial. Yes, it is disappointing. And yes, it is kind of stupid to count a form of beta as a free trial of a game.

"Here ya go! We haven't officially finalized making the game yet, but tell ya what! The time you spent testing the unfinished version of the game is officially your free trial of the game! Isn't that swell! A-Hyuk!"

Yeah, doesn't make sense to me either. With that said, I don't think any real harm would come of not having a free trial for those who already have the game. Granted, having one would do tremendous things for SE as far as PR and marketing. But in the end, if we don't get one, we just don't get one. It's not gonna hurt sales for the game, it's not gonna make people who won't get the free trial break down in tears (at least I hope not), it's not gonna kill anyone. Disappointing? Yes. World-ending? Hardly. And if we do get one, well, awesome sauce.

Now, can we all make nice? It's time we throw down the whips and clubs and let this poor horse rest in peace.

[Abriael]

That is my opinion of the difference between a beta and a free trial.

That's an almost perfectly fitting comparison.

Mind you, no one said that beta testers are "employees", but they're definitely brought on board to provide a service, not to benefit from a free perk. As a matter of fact that participation is not free at all, as we're required to pay with our time and our service as testers. It's give and take.

It's not gonna hurt sales for the game, it's not gonna make people who won't get the free trial break down in tears (at least I hope not), it's not gonna kill anyone. Disappointing? Yes. World-ending? Hardly.

No, it's not going to kill anyone or end the world. That's for sure.

As for not hurting sales? Yes and no. It won't probably hurt box sales, as most 1.0 players won't buy the box anyway, but it does have the potential to hurt account retention and reactivation (which still counts as sales).

The more perks are given to entice players to return, the more players will return, it's a pretty iron clad equation. I would return even if I had to walk on hot coals, and I'm sure the same goes for most of the people on these forums, but for people with a more jaded outlook on the game (which accounts for a large slice of the 800k people that quit it during 1.0's debacle) more encouragement may be necessary.

How much it'll hurt sales? We'll have to wait and see, but as people that want the game to be successful we should encourage SE to make an effort to offer returning players as many perks as possible to catch their attention. That's why I find hilarious that there are people here that try to advocate the opposite:

"Please SE! Skimp as much as you can on the perks! We don't want more players!"

That's kind of silly and counterproductive.

Personally I want to see as many people as possible come back and give the game a try and hopefully stay longer. More perks = more people. It's inevitable.

Now, can we all make nice? It's time we throw down the whips and clubs and let this poor horse rest in peace.

Hard to do when some people just aren't willing to accept that others may not automatically see everything SE does as perfect and infallible.

Mind you, I see almost all they did with ARR as very positive. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be criticized when they behave otherwise. Unfortunately some seem to take serious offense at that.

[Alhanelem]

With that in mind, it's not really that big a deal even if we don't get a free trial. Yes, it is disappointing. And yes, it is kind of stupid to count a form of beta as a free trial of a game.

Except they announced the welcome back campaign, which is essentially the same thing as a free trial except specifically directed at existing/returning customers, and not of "industry standard" duration.

Free trials included in the box with an MMO exist purely so that the player gets to do something with the $40-60 he/she dropped on the game before the subscription sets in. They aren't there for the benefit of current players. While early beta charts did indicate a free trial, it was never specified exactly what it would entail. thus, they could have given us 1 free day or 100 without "breaking a promise", it just said "free trial period-" it didn't say how long, for whom, or the exact timing. Nobody with any sense is going to seriously look down at SE for not giving existing players as much free time or the mere principle of breaking a promise of any kind. That's Abriel's sticking point, and while I certainly do understand being irked that he's not getting exactly what he envisioned when he read that chart like 2 years ago, I don't agree with any suggestion that we aren't getting any free time (the welcome back campaign they announced = free time for current/previous players) and I don't agree that if any promise was broken here, that it will have any major ramifications for SE. A mountain is being made out of a molehill. It's NOT a big deal, and even if the free time isn't exactly what we all hoped for, free time is still free time.

Really guys, all of you. Sit back, grab some donuts, eat them, find them delicious, and freaking relax. This issue, if you can even call it one, is not the end of the world. If the donuts don't help you realize this, try cake. Or pie.

Hard to do when some people just aren't willing to accept that others may not automatically see everything SE does as perfect and infallible.

You don't have the power to compel people to accept your viewpoint. I don't think aynone here considers SE "perfect and infallible." If they were, We'd still be playing 1.0 and it wouldn't have sucked the first time, and ARR would never have existed. YOU need to accept that not everyone is going to accept your position. You can't force people to agree with you.