A letter to Square

[Powercow]

Permit me to hazard a hypothesis: That's because the game was a pretty good game.

Aye, it wasn't bad, but for a Final Fantasy game people have certain expectations that this game didn't quite deliver on. I personally would have given it an above average 7/10 overall, mostly due to graphics, environment (visually, I'm a big sucker for things having a large general scale to them and FF13 does have some big set pieces) and combat design.

Oh and I apologize for the length of my previous post. I trimmed it down about 30%, and I could rant about so many more little bits of this game that bug the hell out of me, but that just comes from me being nitpicky when it comes to games. Hell, I did a pretty long rant against FF7's terrible story and still said I liked the game overall. Even FF9, which is one of my top 10 games (largely due to the characters) has a story I can rip apart into tiny little bits. Take any big game and it's going to happen if you think too hard.

[Abriael]

Aye, it wasn't bad, but for a Final Fantasy game people have certain expectations that this game didn't quite deliver on.

A reasonable approach would lead to judging a game according to what it is, not according to "expectations".

It also helps enjoying games a lot more, which is something many forgot in the past decade.

I'm fully aware that you have six years' experience in the industry, but in this thread and others in recent weeks, you would do well to consider your own posts if you percieve others have put across their opinions in this particular way.

Six years of experience were in the voice acting/localization Industry, that unfortunately I had to leave due to the shrinking of the market. I've been a game writer for 15, both on print and web. But again, I don't talk for everyone, nor for "The fans". Regardless of experience.

I write my opinion in a very blunt, honest and clear cut way, and yes, some hate it. They're entitled to their opinion and it never really bothered me that much. I prefer to be disliked by saying things how I see them than to tell people what they like to hear or pandering to irrational rage in order to be liked.

[Abriael]

By the way, thought I'd link a blog post in response to one of the usual "pandering to the rage articles" on Kotaku (the usual suspects for that kind of pandering). It touches on quite a few points discussed in this thread, some directly, some indirectly, and this one is written by a very experienced game developer and not by a clueless writer that thinks he knows it all and that needs hits to survive or by someone hiding behind anonymity (like the one he refers to). It also shares a point of view on the industry that you hear very seldom among the endless "publishers are ebil!" whining.

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.co...k-you-are.html

Blunt, frank, clear, insightful and very realistic. And yeah, it's not the stuff people like to hear. Just as I like it.

[SkyeWindbinder]

A reasonable approach would lead to judging a game according to what it is, not according to "expectations".

It also helps enjoying games a lot more, which is something many forgot in the past decade.

It's fine judging a game for "what it is" and all that. But the thing of it is, FFXIII was a Final Fantasy title. Fans of the series have come to expect certain things from an FF title. It's really not our fault, it's just what we've been given for years as Final Fantasy fans. You can't not put that there in a big roman numeral production of a Final Fantasy game and expect fans to just "go with the flow". No, we're going to nitpick about reasons why the game isn't "Final Fantasy" enough. Again, it's not our fault, we were given games for years with little repeated details in the series that have come to define the experience of playing Final Fantasy games. Many of those details are reasons that Final Fantasy fans are, in fact, fans of the series.

I, personally, think that FFXIII deserves a 6 out of 10 as an rpg, but as a Final Fantasy, it deserves maybe a 5. It was an okay story (I guess) and the visuals were pretty. But it didn't have the feeling of a Final Fantasy. It was closer to being a Final Fantasy than "The Spirits Within", but only barely.

[Pebe]

Responding to Skye, can you explain to me why FFXIII isn't a final fantasy. I never understood this concept, of a game not being final fantasy enough. For each Final Fantasy explored something new and different.

Example: The Abilities
In the beginning we had jobs (1-6)
Then we left jobs for materia(7)
Then we went from materia to junction(8)
Then we went from junction to learning abilities from gear(I forget what it was called - 9)
Then we had Sphere Grid(10)
Then we went back to jobs (11)
Then we went back the a Sphere Grid like system (12 and 13)
Lastly we had jobs again (FF14)

Example 2: The summons
Every single FF game had summons to this date iirc. Perhaps this one of the aspects that made FFXIII less of a Final Fantasy (The summons were done different than what we usually expected)? Although, in my opinion 13 summons are done almost exactly like FFXII. You fight with you summon for a bit, and then do a super move, and then it ends.

The only thing FFXIII has against it that comes to mind that would make it any less of a Final Fantasy is the lack of interesting level design.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Responding to Skye, can you explain to me why FFXIII isn't a final fantasy. I never understood this concept, of a game not being final fantasy enough. For each Final Fantasy explored something new and different.

Example: The Abilities
In the beginning we had jobs (1-6)
Then we left jobs for materia(7)
Then we went from materia to junction(8)
Then we went from junction to learning abilities from gear(I forget what it was called - 9)
Then we had Sphere Grid(10)
Then we went back to jobs (11)
Then we went back the a Sphere Grid like system (12 and 13)
Lastly we had jobs again (FF14)

Example 2: The summons
Every single FF game had summons to this date iirc. Perhaps this one of the aspects that made FFXIII less of a Final Fantasy (The summons were done different than what we usually expected)? Although, in my opinion 13 summons are done almost exactly like FFXII. You fight with you summon for a bit, and then do a super move, and then it ends.

The only thing FFXIII has against it that comes to mind that would make it any less of a Final Fantasy is the lack of interesting level design.

I never said FFXIII wasn't a Final Fantasy. I merely stated that it didn't really have the feel of a Final Fantasy, at least not as much as other Final Fantasy titles did. It's true, each Final Fantasy had their own version of the franchise that it brought to the table. But they each still had that distinctive full flavor that said Final Fantasy. Imo, FFXIII was lacking on that flavor.

Firstly, it was horribly linear. Yeah I know, it's a common whine people use to describe FFXIII. But it's a valid one, nonetheless. The other Final Fantasies were known for having expansive worlds to explore and run around in at your leisure. In XIII, you could only be in the place where your current part in the storyline wanted you to be. It was a "connect the dots" path that didn't rub off too well on fans. Secondly, where the hell was our airship? It may seem like a minor complaint to you, but it's one of the things that people have come to love about the FF series. Not that it really matters all that much, since there really wasn't too much we could do with an airship since the game was super-linear and didn't allow for real exploration. And the so-called sidequests seemed to be so... small. I mean, they all took place in Pulse which was a lot more open as a world than Cocoon, or at least, let you run around a bit more. But the thing is, for being such a massive world, where could you go in it? Only certain areas. It felt more to me like I was exploring a huge valley than a world. And then there's the towns. Every FF before had at least some populated towns to look around in and explore, something to make the world feel alive. The towns on Cocoon had you going a straight line from point A to B. No looking in shops, no talking to people, no none of that. And on Pulse, the only town you could freely walk around in and explore was full of monsters! All the people seemed to be dead! Well, there's cheerful for you. -_-"

I guess what made it seem less Final Fantasy than the others is the linearity of the game and what they didn't include in the game that was included in so many others. Yes, the game had chocobos, monsters to summon, whiny teens (well, one of them at least), annoying perky girl (again, at least one of them), and some angst and a decent storyline. But what it didn't include, while maybe seeming minuscule when it is there, was a point taken off as an FF title when it wasn't there.

[Pebe]

Oh yea, that was the other main argument that i had forgot about, the lack of towns. Which I agree with.

[Abriael]

It's fine judging a game for "what it is" and all that. But the thing of it is, FFXIII was a Final Fantasy title. Fans of the series have come to expect certain things from an FF title.

Final Fantasy XIII was first and foremost a game. It has to be judged as a game.

If you've "come to expect" certain things from a FF title, then it's only your responsibility if you're displeased when those certain things don't appear.

Game development is (or should be) a creative process, not a matter of going through a checklist of things that you MUST put in your game to avoid displeasing a segment of your fans (notice, you're talking for "the fans" again).

If you think that a series that has given you something "for years" has to give you those same things "forever", then you're just holding the evolution of the series back, that in a market that does evolve, means condemning it to irrelevancy sooner or later.

Yay for creative freedom, mh?

[shane239]

I found the letter and the 33 minute video interesting. And yes I was nodding along with quite a few of the points

"WHAT DO YOU KNOW NOTHING OF THE INDUSTRY!!!???"

Probably not as much as "experts" but I know that there has not been half as many interesting games coming out that I have played in the last few years. Maybe i'm growing out of gaming (I hope not) but I think it does have to do with companies trying to make quick money and produce games at an alarming rate!

I also think they should introduce a 1 post every two days in a thread. I know this is a heated discussion but it is bordering on people trying to force their opinion on each other. Why not just make a point and leave it at that? Would take a lot of the "hate" out of the thread!

[Abriael]

I found the letter and the 33 minute video interesting. And yes I was nodding along with quite a few of the points

"WHAT DO YOU KNOW NOTHING OF THE INDUSTRY!!!???"

Probably not as much as "experts" but I know that there has not been half as many interesting games coming out that I have played in the last few years. Maybe i'm growing out of gaming (I hope not) but I think it does have to do with companies trying to make quick money and produce games at an alarming rate!

I also think they should introduce a 1 post every two days in a thread. I know this is a heated discussion but it is bordering on people trying to force their opinion on each other. Why not just make a point and leave it at that? Would take a lot of the "hate" out of the thread!

Funny how you talk about "trying to force one's opinion on each other", and then you'd force people not to express theirs.

This is a discussion forum mate. That's what it's made for.