A letter to Square

[Abriael]

Aye, it wasn't bad, but for a Final Fantasy game people have certain expectations that this game didn't quite deliver on.

A reasonable approach would lead to judging a game according to what it is, not according to "expectations".

It also helps enjoying games a lot more, which is something many forgot in the past decade.

I'm fully aware that you have six years' experience in the industry, but in this thread and others in recent weeks, you would do well to consider your own posts if you percieve others have put across their opinions in this particular way.

Six years of experience were in the voice acting/localization Industry, that unfortunately I had to leave due to the shrinking of the market. I've been a game writer for 15, both on print and web. But again, I don't talk for everyone, nor for "The fans". Regardless of experience.

I write my opinion in a very blunt, honest and clear cut way, and yes, some hate it. They're entitled to their opinion and it never really bothered me that much. I prefer to be disliked by saying things how I see them than to tell people what they like to hear or pandering to irrational rage in order to be liked.

[Abriael]

By the way, thought I'd link a blog post in response to one of the usual "pandering to the rage articles" on Kotaku (the usual suspects for that kind of pandering). It touches on quite a few points discussed in this thread, some directly, some indirectly, and this one is written by a very experienced game developer and not by a clueless writer that thinks he knows it all and that needs hits to survive or by someone hiding behind anonymity (like the one he refers to). It also shares a point of view on the industry that you hear very seldom among the endless "publishers are ebil!" whining.

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.co...k-you-are.html

Blunt, frank, clear, insightful and very realistic. And yeah, it's not the stuff people like to hear. Just as I like it.

[SkyeWindbinder]

A reasonable approach would lead to judging a game according to what it is, not according to "expectations".

It also helps enjoying games a lot more, which is something many forgot in the past decade.

It's fine judging a game for "what it is" and all that. But the thing of it is, FFXIII was a Final Fantasy title. Fans of the series have come to expect certain things from an FF title. It's really not our fault, it's just what we've been given for years as Final Fantasy fans. You can't not put that there in a big roman numeral production of a Final Fantasy game and expect fans to just "go with the flow". No, we're going to nitpick about reasons why the game isn't "Final Fantasy" enough. Again, it's not our fault, we were given games for years with little repeated details in the series that have come to define the experience of playing Final Fantasy games. Many of those details are reasons that Final Fantasy fans are, in fact, fans of the series.

I, personally, think that FFXIII deserves a 6 out of 10 as an rpg, but as a Final Fantasy, it deserves maybe a 5. It was an okay story (I guess) and the visuals were pretty. But it didn't have the feeling of a Final Fantasy. It was closer to being a Final Fantasy than "The Spirits Within", but only barely.

[Abriael]

It's fine judging a game for "what it is" and all that. But the thing of it is, FFXIII was a Final Fantasy title. Fans of the series have come to expect certain things from an FF title.

Final Fantasy XIII was first and foremost a game. It has to be judged as a game.

If you've "come to expect" certain things from a FF title, then it's only your responsibility if you're displeased when those certain things don't appear.

Game development is (or should be) a creative process, not a matter of going through a checklist of things that you MUST put in your game to avoid displeasing a segment of your fans (notice, you're talking for "the fans" again).

If you think that a series that has given you something "for years" has to give you those same things "forever", then you're just holding the evolution of the series back, that in a market that does evolve, means condemning it to irrelevancy sooner or later.

Yay for creative freedom, mh?

[SkyeWindbinder]

Final Fantasy XIII was first and foremost a game. It has to be judged as a game.

Indeed. Secondly, it was a Final Fantasy game. It must also be judged as that as well.

If you've "come to expect" certain things from a FF title, then it's only your responsibility if you're displeased when those certain things don't appear.

That's a rather irresponsible way of looking at it. In fact, I would deem it a pretty poor copout and very close to White Knighting Squeenix.

If a game franchise is going to include things in their franchise that their fans have grown fond of for almost the entire franchise over decades, then of course it's fair to expect that those things would be in the latter games. It's also fair to complain when they're not. It's also common freakin sense to expect that people are going to be complaining about these things. True, expectations can lead to disappointments. But if elements of a game are absent that have been in every game in it's franchise before it, then you can't possibly even begin to try to tell me that the disappointment consumers feel is their own fault. And if that really is your attitude, then here's a tip: Don't ever, EVER get into the game making business. Your consumers will hate you, and you will likely fail. lol

Game development is (or should be) a creative process, not a matter of going through a checklist of things that you MUST put in your game to avoid displeasing a segment of your fans (notice, you're talking for "the fans" again).

I'm more citing the many words of disappointment that fans have said about the game (myself included) than talking "for them". A parrot can repeat what others say, it doesn't make them the representative of whom they're repeating. And yes, game development is a creative process. But as a Final Fantasy developer, you must also be mindful that you are trying to get people to buy your game. And many of the people buying your game are fans of the franchise, and the familiar things in each Final Fantasy have played a huge part in that.

If you think that a series that has given you something "for years" has to give you those same things "forever", then you're just holding the evolution of the series back, that in a market that does evolve, means condemning it to irrelevancy sooner or later.

That's not true at all. Certain things are staplemarks of a Final Fantasy game. As they have always been. When they're not there, people are going to complain. Not including them is like not including a toy in a Happy Meal. Not necessarily essential for the meal, but do you really think that taking this staplemark out of the Happy Meal will go over well with kids who have been getting toys with their Happy Meal every time their parents take them? Of course it's not. You seem to almost be of the mind that Final Fantasy becoming ludicrously linear, claustrophobic, and rushed in the process or progressing through the game is some sort of "evolution". Well, I, for one, am inclined to disagree. And if "evolution" is what SE was trying to do, there are plenty of other and more successful ways they can do that.

IYay for creative freedom, mh?

Creative freedom is all well and good. But you also have to be careful when you're steering from the formula. Especially if it involves getting rid of aspects of a game that have served it well in the franchise. It's easy to just say "Well, it's the customer's fault for expecting this and that", but if you create expectations with your product over decades then take it away, it's just really pouty, condescending and stupid to blame the customer for having a problem with that.

[Abriael]

Indeed. Secondly, it was a Final Fantasy game. It must also be judged as that as well.

No. Not really. A game is a game. If a game is good, it's good regardless of the brand on the box. If it's bad, it's bad regardless of its franchise.

Funny how many bash developers for not "steering from the formula", but yet when they do, they get backlash anyway.

I would say that encouraging, or even demanding, formulaic development is "irresponsible" (to use your own word), as it stifles evolution and innovation.

It's actually a lot easier to just assemble a nice checklist of popular elements into a game than to create something new.

But if developers did just that, we'd still be eating pills in a maze.

[Obsy]

What she said

What he said

Maybe it's just me, but I'm sensing a disconnect in this discussion boiling down to "Apples are red" vs. "Apples taste good".

You're both clearly intelligent and can solidly argue the points you're bringing to the table, but right now it's looking like these points aren't entirely connecting with each other.

[Keith_Dragoon]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm sensing a disconnect in this discussion boiling down to "Apples are red" vs. "Apples taste good".

You're both clearly intelligent and can solidly argue the points you're bringing to the table, but right now it's looking like these points aren't entirely connecting with each other.

Welcome to FFXIV forums! :P

[SkyeWindbinder]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm sensing a disconnect in this discussion boiling down to "Apples are red" vs. "Apples taste good".

You're both clearly intelligent and can solidly argue the points you're bringing to the table, but right now it's looking like these points aren't entirely connecting with each other.

Well, we have different views on the subject, so naturally we approach them with clashing ideas, lol. I think disagreements are good, as they add the flavor of the spice of life to the fanbase of any franchise. I'm just looking for the middle ground myself. ^^

[SkyeWindbinder]

No. Not really. A game is a game. If a game is good, it's good regardless of the brand on the box. If it's bad, it's bad regardless of its franchise.

But we're not just talking about "A" game, we're talking about a game "franchise". And grading a game, especially one that belongs to such a popular franchise, isn't as easy as just saying "Hey, it's pretty good, it passes" or "Hey, it's pretty good, it fails". Call of Duty is a shooter franchise, for instance. Now suppose Activision (I think they're who develop those annoying games) made the next Call of Duty game a friggin RPG? It could be a good RPG, heck it could be one of the best. But do you really think it's going to go over well with the fans of the COD franchise? Saying "If it's good, it should work" is a shallow, black and white way of looking at it. You have many things to take into consideration here.

Funny how many bash developers for not "steering from the formula", but yet when they do, they get backlash anyway.

Games are always going to get backlash, no matter how good or great they are. Welcome to the game industry, lol. However, backlash from fans caused by taking out staple elements that were in a franchise are, imo, quite understood and rather expected.

I would say that encouraging, or even demanding, formulaic development is "irresponsible" (to use your own word), as it stifles evolution and innovation.

Want to know what helps evolution and innovation? Criticism. SE wanted to try something new with FFXIII. Fair enough. However, evolution did not really have to come at the price of taking things out of the game that customers have had with the franchise for decades. Perhaps the linear collar-and-leash approach to progressing through a game is an "evolution" in your opinion. But to me, it's the opposite of that. Freedom of exploration (among other things absent from FFXIII) are loved by the people who have been with the franchise for years. I'm pretty sure there are better ways of so-called "evolving" than taking those elements out. Especially since SE has shown themselves that there are better ways and they are capable of implementing them (better graphics, revamped battle systems, more engaging side quests, ect.) Gamers have criticized SE's decisions to go such a route as they did with FFXIII. Maybe that will help them to "evolve" in different ways, while keeping a lot of elements that have kept fans coming back for each new installment in the franchise.

It's actually a lot easier to just assemble a nice checklist of popular elements into a game than to create something new.

But if developers did just that, we'd still be eating pills in a maze.

It's also a lot easier to make a game in which you just have to progress from point A to B than to make one in which the world is more open and exploration is possible. And considering that, SE seems to have definitely taken the easy road with FFXIII. You again seem to equate evolution with taking out staple elements in a franchise. I think evolution in a game to be much different. Instead of taking out the elements, why not evolve them (I mean REALLY evolve them). Instead of taking out the airship, how about adding the ability to build and customize your own airship? Now THAT'S evolving. Instead of making a game super linear, how about adding a few elements in which the world is open and, depending on how you interact or what you do in it, the world changes with your decisions (kind of like what they do in sandbox games). Not THAT'S evolving. SE didn't evolve the franchise with these decisions. They just made it different. And depending on how you handle it, different can be good or bad. As I said, when changing the formula, you have to take things into consideration. You have to know what parts of the formula to change, what parts not to. The FF's before XIII did pretty good with this. The changed some things to put their own stamp on the franchise, while staying true enough to the franchise. FFXIII, not so much, at least as far as a lot of players of the game think.