Buffs that last a bit longer

[VydarrTyr]

In other words, rebuffing = maintenance, and maintenance DOES NOT BELONG IN MMOS.

So, buffs should last forever? I think someone else suggested that, but I thought they were being sarcastic.

Does this also apply to heals? Because constantly re-healing is such a chore. Once you're healed, they should make it so you stay healed. Don't make us do "maintenance" on heals, SE!

Better yet, if it's such a chore to buff, then how about we make it so that everyone starts the game fully buffed, and they stay buffed forever? So we can get rid of "maintenance" on buffs altogether. (And also get rid of buffing classes.)

Seriously, if you think buffing is tedious, then maybe don't play a buffing class.

I have a better idea. Instead of being forced to pay attention for routine maintenance, why not be forced to pay attention because the NM could, at any time, start charging a powerful TP attack that only the CON has a spell to counter?

It sounds like you're more suited to being a melee. I know several melee classes have counter-attacks that you can launch based on environmental cues. Maybe instead of turning everything into a counter-attacking class, you could play one of the counter-attacking classes.

Aggro management is the polar opposite of fun, as it's basically saying "How many fun things can I do before the game will punish me for it?". A better idea would be strategically using cooldowns on attacks that stun, knockback, etc. to maximize your effectiveness between trying to heal. That would add meaningful strategy to the game that's blatantly apparent instead of adding strategy to the metagame of aggro management which is a cancer on the buttocks of MMOs to start with.

This is a completely different discussion. Aggro management is a defining characteristic of MMOs, and has been pretty much since their inception.

Under this system that you're envisioning, how would mobs decide whom to attack? Should it be random? If you're getting rid of aggro management, we can also get rid of tank classes. So now we've eliminated buffers, tanks, and potentially healers. If we could just find a way to get rid of DPS classes, we won't need any players at all.

Then turn off stoneskin auto-refresh or do it manually.

Turn off the auto-refresh and do it manually. Like I suggested. Glad we cleared that up.

A few minor inconveniences are not reason enough to not liberate casters from the tedium of rebuffing.

Casters, the only thing you have to lose is your chains!

Honestly, the "minor inconveniences" are basic facets of MMOs, like aggro. Getting rid of those, and coming up with something entirely new, is not a "minor inconvenience."

And by making buffs last so long, you'd actually be making buffers *less* valuable. If I can get hour-long buffs, why do I need a buffer in my party? Just cast the buff, and then you can go afk while the rest of us do stuff.

If you don't want to buff, then my suggestion would be to not play a buffer class. There are plenty of other jobs that you can play. Find something you like, and go with that.

[RichardButte]

So, buffs should last forever? I think someone else suggested that, but I thought they were being sarcastic.

Actually, yes.

They're usually called "auras" and simply having them on and active means party members within range get the buff until you A) turn it off or B) they leave the party.

They work great in MMOs that were developed this decade.

Does this also apply to heals? Because constantly re-healing is such a chore. Once you're healed, they should make it so you stay healed. Don't make us do "maintenance" on heals, SE!

A buff needs to be cast and recast when its timer runs out, regardless of when that happens. That makes it a regularly scheduled maintenance chore.

Heals need to happen in the midst of battle to save a party member from dying. Heals are a battle action (ie an action that happens in response to battle).

The two could not be further apart.

Better yet, if it's such a chore to buff, then how about we make it so that everyone starts the game fully buffed, and they stay buffed forever? So we can get rid of "maintenance" on buffs altogether. (And also get rid of buffing classes.)

Stop turning things into bizarre absolutes.

Seriously, if you think buffing is tedious, then maybe don't play a buffing class.
It sounds like you're more suited to being a melee. I know several melee classes have counter-attacks that you can launch based on environmental cues. Maybe instead of turning everything into a counter-attacking class, you could play one of the counter-attacking classes.

Ah yes, this silly strawman. The old "If you don't like it, don't play it" argument. Yeah, that's JUST what XIV needs right now: more people not playing because they don't like it.

No, buffing is tedious because it's a recurring inevitability, based on the facts that A) buffs are going to run out and B) there is nothing stopping you from recasting them.

Healing is a different story because you can only heal so quickly, meaning that healing power and output is directly related to battle because it determines what situations you and your party members can and cannot survive.

Other MMOs have figured out how to not turn buffing classes into virtual janitors. There's no reason XIV can't do the same.

Under this system that you're envisioning, how would mobs decide whom to attack? Should it be random? If you're getting rid of aggro management,

Where did I say that aggro management should be done away with? I said it wasn't enjoyable, which it isn't, hence why making an exception for an auto-refresh of a buff not generating aggro isn't going to break the game in two.

So now we've eliminated buffers, tanks, and potentially healers. If we could just find a way to get rid of DPS classes, we won't need any players at all.

And with the attitude of "Don't like it? Don't play it" that you have, we won't have a GAME to worry about in the long run anyway.

Honestly, the "minor inconveniences" are basic facets of MMOs, like aggro. Getting rid of those, and coming up with something entirely new, is not a "minor inconvenience."

No, the minor inconvenience was the notion that the entire system wouldn't work because of ONE example where an auto-refreshing buff might generate some extra aggro, which you then took and blew out of proportion, saying that I was suggesting abolishing the entire aggro management system because I thought aggro generation should be negated for buffs that happen automatically.

And by making buffs last so long, you'd actually be making buffers *less* valuable. If I can get hour-long buffs, why do I need a buffer in my party? Just cast the buff, and then you can go afk while the rest of us do stuff.

Here's my idea on the situation:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...und-the-caster

If you're in the party with the caster, the buff is always on in an AoE around the caster. If the caster removes the buff from their action bar, the buff goes away. If you leave the party, the buff goes away.

The whole point of the recast timer is to ensure that players who aren't in the party with the buffer don't have the buffs. Why else would they be so short? Buffing isn't hard. It doesn't use copious amounts of mana. There's no "challenge" like "Will I get this heal off in time to save the tank?!", no. It's just boring and tedious, hence why there's no need to make casters recast buffs every five minutes.

You won't be able to buff people outside of your party, true, but considering buffs only last five minutes, how much help would those buffs truly be?

If you don't want to buff, then my suggestion would be to not play a buffer class. There are plenty of other jobs that you can play. Find something you like, and go with that.

And that's the kind of attitude that will run this game straight into the ground.

Don't like the battle system? Go play something else. Don't like crafting? Go play something else. Shame most everyone did, and now XIV is running a second beta until they can get the game back to the point where someone will actually pay to play it.

SE doesn't need to tell potential paying customers to go pound sand. They need to hear the feedback and criticisms that will help shape this into a better game, and ensuring support classes don't need to act like virtual janitors would definitely be a step in the right direction.

[VydarrTyr]

Goodness, Richard. That's quite a post. Let's see if I can condense this down to something manageable.

They're usually called "auras" and simply having them on and active means party members within range get the buff until you A) turn it off or B) they leave the party.

"Auras" are already in the current party system. Small or large parties get an AC/HP bonus.

The problem with auras is that they don't have to be cast. They're just there. I'd prefer the strategy that comes with the act of casting, which is both active and has consequences (i.e., aggro). I don't have a huge problem with auras, but I prefer the buffing system.

No, buffing is tedious because it's a recurring inevitability, based on the facts that A) buffs are going to run out and B) there is nothing stopping you from recasting them.

Heals need to happen in the midst of battle to save a party member from dying. Heals are a battle action (ie an action that happens in response to battle).

The two could not be further apart.

Healing is tedious because it's a recurring inevitability, based on the fact that A) players are going to lose HP, forcing you to recast and B) there is nothing stopping you from recasting them.

Buffs happen in the midst of long battles to keep a party from dying. They're a battle action (ie an action that happens in response to battle).

What's the difference again? One adds HP and one stops HP from being lost? They're not exactly matter and anti-matter.

However, there is something to stop you from casting buffs and heals. Aggro.

Ah yes, this silly strawman. The old "If you don't like it, don't play it" argument. Yeah, that's JUST what XIV needs right now: more people not playing because they don't like it.

I don't think you know what a "strawman" is. It's when you invent an argument based on something that you want other people to argue, but they didn't. It gives you an opportunity to avoid responding to what was actually said so you can respond to something easier.

Your post is a pretty good example of a strawman. I never said you should stop playing the game. I said you should play classes that do things you enjoy.

Since it was apparently unclear before, I meant that if you want to do more counter-attacking, you should play classes in FFXIV that have counter-attack abilities.

And with the attitude of "Don't like it? Don't play it" that you have, we won't have a GAME to worry about in the long run anyway.

Strawman.

And that's the kind of attitude that will run this game straight into the ground.

Don't like the battle system? Go play something else. Don't like crafting? Go play something else.

Strawman.

Where did I say that aggro management should be done away with? I said it wasn't enjoyable, which it isn't, hence why making an exception for an auto-refresh of a buff not generating aggro isn't going to break the game in two.

Stop turning things into bizarre absolutes. I never said it was going to break the game in two.

First of all, lots of people disagree with you on whether buffing is enjoyable.

Second, you described it as butt cancer. If you were suggesting that butt cancer is not something that should be done away with, then I sincerely hope you're not a doctor.

Third, here is where you suggested doing away with aggro:

Aggro management is the polar opposite of fun, as it's basically saying "How many fun things can I do before the game will punish me for it?". A better idea would be strategically using cooldowns on attacks that stun, knockback, etc. to maximize your effectiveness between trying to heal.

You suggested a "better" alternative. If you weren't suggesting that aggro be done away with, then your idea is not better. It's the same as what's already in the game. Thms can debuff. Sleep and paralysis are spells that are already in the game. If your point was that aggro and debuffs should both be in the game, then you're going to be pleasantly surprised by this new game called FFXIV.

I'm not sure why you're so offended by my suggestion that you play a melee class. I thought it was pretty reasonable, considering that you hate buffing and want to do more twitch-based counter-attacks. If you think buffing is boring or tedious or "janitorial," then don't buff. Do something else.

There are plenty of ways you can play this game without doing things that you think suck. One of the advantages of FFXIV is that players can equip -- or not equip -- any abilities on their bar that they want. You can be a DD Conjurer, or you can heal and buff, or any combination of the two. If you find something so distasteful that you think "butt cancer" is a fair comparison, and not a bizarre absolute, then maybe you should think about not doing it.

[RichardButte]

"Auras" are already in the current party system. Small or large parties get an AC/HP bonus.

So CON buffs would work just fine in the same manner.

The problem with auras is that they don't have to be cast. They're just there. I'd prefer the strategy that comes with the act of casting, which is both active and has consequences (i.e., aggro). I don't have a huge problem with auras, but I prefer the buffing system.

1. How much aggro does buffing generate? I've buffed mid-fight and never pulled aggro from it...

2. How is there strategy involved in buffing mid-fight? Aside from squeezing the buff in between heals (which isn't exactly strategic), there's no amount of micromanagment of aggro that goes into strategic. Strategic would be buffing the healer AS the tank to shift aggro off the healer and onto you (but we're taking about buffing classes, not players that have leveled a bit of a buffing class).

Healing is tedious because it's a recurring inevitability, based on the fact that A) players are going to lose HP, forcing you to recast and B) there is nothing stopping you from recasting them.

Incorrect on both counts.

1. Players are not going to lose HP just standing there. In fact, they regain HP. Their buffs, however, ARE going to wear off and need to be recast. There's a tremendous waste in most buffs in that players are only actually receiving use from them when they're in a battle (the exception being crafting buffs).

2. Many players DON'T lose HP. Ranged attackers in parties tend to lose little to no HP.

We're not playing "Gauntlet" here. Our health isn't ticking down constantly. Ergo, healing is NOT an inevitability as many players will rarely if ever require healing.

Buffs happen in the midst of long battles to keep a party from dying.

What buff is so powerful that is literally saves a tank from going down? (MAYBE stoneskin, but you'd be a fool to cast that mid-fight...). I admit, I've not played endgame content, but I can't see stopping to toss a buff on a tank when I'm too busy furiously healing him/her instead.

What's the difference again? One adds HP and one stops HP from being lost? They're not exactly matter and anti-matter.

One is done in direct reaction to teammates taking damage (healing) while the other is done all the time in the hopes of preventing teammates from taking as much damage (buffing).

There is a colossal difference between "remaining vigilant" and "desperately healing the tank", mainly that (as the name implies) remaining vigilant is a constant, and I don't think the cost of that constant should be tedium.

However, there is something to stop you from casting buffs and heals. Aggro.
I don't think you know what a "strawman" is. It's when you invent an argument based on something that you want other people to argue, but they didn't. It gives you an opportunity to avoid responding to what was actually said so you can respond to something easier.

You mean like the strawman of suggesting I play another class instead of making suggestion to improve this one (ie what SE needs now more than ever)?

And yes, saying "There's nothing wrong with the class, the problem is on your end" IS a strawman because, rather than acknowledge a piece of valid criticism for what it is, you've chosen to try to shift the argument to being about my inability to enjoy the class.

Your post is a pretty good example of a strawman. I never said you should stop playing the game. I said you should play classes that do things you enjoy.

I never said I was going to stop playing. I said the argument of "Play something else" is a terrible one because I think every class should be enjoyable to play, and not just by "altruists", either.

I've enjoyed playing every single class in WoW, Aion, PSO and Lineage, and that includes classes that had buffs that needed to be regularly recast. No class in ANY of those games, however, had buffs that needed to be recast every five minutes.

Since it was apparently unclear before, I meant that if you want to do more counter-attacking, you should play classes in FFXIV that have counter-attack abilities.

Buffing class ≠ class that is incapable of attacking/counter attacking.

I don't know what draconian MMO design theory states that only some classes should have the ability to react to enemy attacks but it's breaking that mold that put WoW where it is now.

Strawman.

This was in response to your over-the-top bit about "So now we've eliminated buffers, tanks, and potentially healers. If we could just find a way to get rid of DPS classes, we won't need any players at all."

And I stand by it, too. Saying "try another class" isn't the answer and will ultimately be the death of this game.

Good thing the devs aren't that narrow-minded...

Strawman.

Your advice was to play another class if I didn't like this one. I pointed out that such advice isn't going to fly when all classes should be enjoyable to play.

Again, how did all those other devs manage to develop games with enjoyable classes but SE can't do it?

Stop turning things into bizarre absolutes. I never said it was going to break the game in two.

You suggested that auto-refresh buffing was going to cause problems for aggro management because it would draw aggro when the CON didn't want to. I said it could be negated for this instance because it's a small sacrifice to make to not have to rebuff every 5 minutes.

Furthermore, that was one choice phrase. It was nowhere near the drama of suggesting that "every class start fully buffed" and that "we should remove players".

First of all, lots of people disagree with you on whether buffing is enjoyable.

And they can come here and state their case if they like, but I don't see them doing that.

Second, you described it as butt cancer.

And I stand by that, because the entire system has made the last generation of MMOs ridiculously samey as a result.

It's a system put in place because we lack the technological prowess to have a better one. What do I mean by better one? In reality, any semi-intelligent opponent knows to go straight for the healers (like they do in PvP), but the game has to pretend that the mob in question isn't smart enough to do that, despite the fact that the mob just saw a healer completely refill the health of the player it's attacking (or did it? I know that if I was attacking a person and all of his wounds healed up suddenly, I wouldn't know who just did that, unless I happened to be looking in their direction at the time, but again, this system has to pretend that mobs magically know who's doing the healing because it needs to generate aggro).

In reality, the job of a tank should be to stand between the mob and the healer, blocking the mob from reaching the healer, grabbing the mob if it starts to attack the healer, etc., but we don't have the tech to do stuff like that in online games (at least not 3D online games. I know Clan Lord has mobs that will attack healers and only healers, forcing fighters to block their path).

So yeah, the aggro system in this game came straight out of WoW, which is sad because as soon as you're playing the aggro management game, you lose the essence of the vibrant fantasy world we're supposed to otherwise be believing in. We're not fighting monsters, we're fighting a set of equations that have an exact system for determining which player they should attack.

Third, here is where you suggested doing away with aggro:You suggested a "better" alternative. If you weren't suggesting that aggro be done away with, then your idea is not better.

Honestly, there are a lot of things that I'd like to see in an MMO that just aren't going to be in FFXIV.

While I think some developer will some day do some innovating, the aggro system as it stands is here to stay in XIV, for better or worse.

It's the same as what's already in the game. Thms can debuff. Sleep and paralysis are spells that are already in the game. If your point was that aggro and debuffs should both be in the game, then you're going to be pleasantly surprised by this new game called FFXIV.

My point is that buffs shouldn't need to be recast every 3-5 minutes, and if we have to give CONs a freebee when it comes to dodging aggro generation, it's not a loss I'm going to lose any sleep over.

I'm not sure why you're so offended by my suggestion that you play a melee class.

See my previous point about enjoying buffing classes in other MMOs.

I'm making a suggestion to improve the playability and enjoyability of the class: buffing every 5 minutes is boring and tedious. Since it was done to prevent players outside the party from getting buffs, make it local to the party and always on, then increase the aggro from healing if they need to compensate. Voilà!

There are plenty of ways you can play this game without doing things that you think suck.

A better solution is for nothing to suck, and while that sounds unrealistic, how did Blizzard, NCSoft and Sega pull it off while SE can't?

It's one thing for a class to have it's role. It's another entirely for that role to involve tedium, especially when that tedium is far from necessary.

[VydarrTyr]

Ugh. This is getting painful.

I'm going to leave out a number of what I think are the sillier arguments and just try to focus on a couple of points. Otherwise, I'll be typing all night.

1. How much aggro does buffing generate? I've buffed mid-fight and never pulled aggro from it...

I don't know how to answer that question. It generates some. It's not like I can give you a number, since nobody outside of SE knows the equations going on behind the scenes.

I've buffed mid-fight and pulled aggro. I've seen other healers do it, too. It happened a lot more before they changed the enmity generation, and it still happens. It doesn't happen every time, but it happens.

2. How is there strategy involved in buffing mid-fight?

Let's take an example from later in your opus.

I admit, I've not played endgame content, but I can't see stopping to toss a buff on a tank when I'm too busy furiously healing him/her instead.

That's where the strategy comes in. You've got to figure out when you can re-buff. And you've got to consider the amount of aggro you're pulling. You've got to time it so that your tank doesn't die because you've missed a heal.

Yes, it's not much of a worry on lower level mobs when the fight is over in 30 seconds. But it becomes a concern when you start doing fights that last 20 minutes.

There is a colossal difference between "remaining vigilant" and "desperately healing the tank", mainly that (as the name implies) remaining vigilant is a constant, and I don't think the cost of that constant should be tedium.

But if you're "desperately healing the tank" and also trying to figure out when/how you can re-buff, how is that tedious? If "desperately healing the tank" is fun and challenging, how does adding in another thing to worry about make it suddenly boring?

You mean like the strawman of suggesting I play another class instead of making suggestion to improve this one

No. You're still using it incorrectly. Suggesting that you might enjoy playing another class is not attributing a false argument to you. It's a suggestion. It was intended to be helpful.

And yes, saying "There's nothing wrong with the class, the problem is on your end" IS a strawman because, rather than acknowledge a piece of valid criticism for what it is, you've chosen to try to shift the argument to being about my inability to enjoy the class.

No. You're still using it wrong.

And you're using another strawman. I never said nor implied that there's a problem on your end. People like different things. There's nothing wrong with that. If you don't like buffing, then don't buff.

Why are you acting like I'm attacking you? I'm just suggesting that you might like other classes. Why is that so offensive?

Saying "try another class" isn't the answer and will ultimately be the death of this game.

Good thing the devs aren't that narrow-minded...

The devs want you to try more classes. They encourage it. If you enjoy the other class more, how will that hurt FFXIV? Presumably, you'll be playing more and complaining less. That's a good thing for FFXIV, and for you.

Your advice was to play another class if I didn't like this one. I pointed out that such advice isn't going to fly when all classes should be enjoyable to play.

Again, how did all those other devs manage to develop games with enjoyable classes but SE can't do it?

How would you know that there are no enjoyable classes? You haven't tried them. Here's your Lodestone entry:

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=1736665

Your axe rank is zero. Your sword rank is zero. Your lancer rank is zero.

You have no idea whether those classes are fun to play. You haven't even equipped a weapon for them.

Try them. You just might like them.

I've enjoyed playing every single class in WoW, Aion, PSO and Lineage, and that includes classes that had buffs that needed to be regularly recast. No class in ANY of those games, however, had buffs that needed to be recast every five minutes.

Let's go to the WoW Wiki and see if this is true:

* Strength and Agility (+1395 Strength and Agility at Level 85)
o Death knight [Horn of Winter] Generates 10 Ruinic Power. Lasts 2 minutes, 3 minutes with Glyph of Horn of Winter.
o Hunter [Roar of Courage]ω δ Cat and Sprit Beast Aura
o Shaman [Strength of Earth Totem] Lasts 5 minutes.
o Warrior [Battle Shout] Generates 20 Rage. Lasts 2 minutes.

* Haste - Increases group's melee, ranged, and casting speed by 30%
o Shaman [Bloodlust]/Shaman [Heroism] Lasts 40 seconds.
o Mage [Time Warp] Lasts 40 seconds.
o Hunter [Ancient Hysteria]ω δ Core Hound ability. Lasts 40 seconds.

2 minutes? 40 seconds? Those are less than five minutes, right?

So yeah, the aggro system in this game came straight out of WoW,

You've got it backwards. FFXI was released in 2002. WoW was released in 2004. FF was first.

[RichardButte]

That's where the strategy comes in. You've got to figure out when you can re-buff. And you've got to consider the amount of aggro you're pulling. You've got to time it so that your tank doesn't die because you've missed a heal.

But you said yourself that you can't tell me what the number on aggro is, that you've sometimes pulled aggro with a buff and sometimes not.

How can that ever be a meaningful, strategic decision when all it boils down to is GUESSING? If it was just you and a tank, you could maybe deduce how much aggro you have, but when there are 1-6 other party members involved, how in the hell could you possibly make an informed decision about how much aggro you personally hold?

Want strategic buffs? Give CONs a single-target, long cooldown megabuff that draws lots of aggro, one that doubles the damage output of your tank for 30 seconds or something. THAT would be a strategic decision to make in a fight, and it wouldn't involve any of the maintenance buffs, either.

But it becomes a concern when you start doing fights that last 20 minutes.
But if you're "desperately healing the tank" and also trying to figure out when/how you can re-buff, how is that tedious?

It's not, but the problem lies in the fact that 20 minute fights are roughly 5% of all the fights you'll have (maybe). The other 95% is spent buffing and rebuffing the party every five minutes and that gets old fast.

Not that you've done this a lot, but I've seen far too many people try to justify things in this game by pointing out NM battles, ignoring the fact that NM battles don't happen until much later in the game and that many players may never fight NMs at all.

And you're using another strawman. I never said nor implied that there's a problem on your end. People like different things. There's nothing wrong with that. If you don't like buffing, then don't buff.

If that's how you intended to use it, fair enough.

But it's still a bad suggestion. I like nuking, I like healing and I like buffing, but having to stop every 5 minutes to call the party together to stand in one place while I recast buffs gets old fast.

It's the one aspect of the class that I don't like, so why would I abandon it instead of suggesting changes?

Your axe rank is zero. Your sword rank is zero. Your lancer rank is zero.

They're called "alts" and I have them. I also tried these classes in beta.

Let's go to the WoW Wiki and see if this is true:2 minutes? 40 seconds? Those are less than five minutes, right?

Most of what you listed are personal buffs that equate more to the Lancer's Ferocity.

The buffs you need to be looking at are:

Power word: Fortitude: increases the target's HP, lasts 30 minutes (group cast lasts 1 hour, uses a reagent).

Mark of the Wild: increases all stats and resistances, lasts 30 minutes (group cast lasts 1 hour, uses a reagent).

These are the buffs that are closer to what Shell and Protect do, only they last 30 minutes, minimum.

WoW/Aion buffs also have no casting time, meaning you can even run past people and toss a friendly buff on them if you want.

This is where I think XIV has a chance to one-up WoW by eliminating this tedium entirely or, like some have suggested, make the duration of the buff scale with the caster level (if you're playing as that class when you cast the buff, of course).

The other irritating thing about buffing a party is this: it's not a single button press like in WoW. First, you need to gather the party together to ensure the AoE hits everyone. Then, you press the button, press return to confirm AoE and do this for 4 buffs (usually Shell, Protect, Stoneskin and Shock Spikes), and you need to do this EVERY FIVE MINUTES (three for stoneskin and shock spikes)!

I'm sorry, but that's just a bloody hassle. If we want mid-fight buffing strategy, give us buffs that can make or break a fight and generate lots of aggro, but let these little maintenance buffs be 30 minutes to an hour, or scale based upon the caster level.