Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

[Dzian]

Yes, I know what you're thinking. "But, what if we gave the monk it's own 'monk-ish' way of healing? What then?" I say fine, but it still should not be able to heal as potently as a WHM can. Because the monk is built for DPS with bare hands. The WHM is built for healing.

So in that quote you've told me what a monk does AND how a monk does it. You've then told me what a WHM does but you HAVE NOT said how a whm does it. you are not being consistant. there are 3 variables in this comparison. what a job is. what a job does and how a job does it. you need all 3 of those to justify any arguement.

for white mage you are only giving two variables. what a job is and what a job does. and you are using those to validate your point because by your standards. what a job is is a whm. what a job does is heal. your arguement then is that because of that it should be the best healer.

to apply those same standards to another class. what a job is is a dragoon. what a job does is dps. thus because of that with your arguement a dragoon should be the best dps.

what you are doing however is adding a third variable to dps class but deliberately omitting it from healing. and without consistancy your arguement has no merit.

The difference is, A chemist would likely be able to make potions that can do some things that a WHM can't do with his magic. For instance, a chemist could make a potion called "invisibility", that lessens the hate players receive from monsters. Or a potion that helps people recover their MP instantly with no cost or cooldown. Or a potion that makes physical DPS stronger. The alchemical possibilities are endless, and easily there are abilities a chemist could do that a WHM cannot do with his magic. Heck, a chemist can even make some potions that can heal another for a good amount of HP. But as potently as a WHM's high-end healing spells?.

I would hope a chemist could do things a whm can't otherwise its pointless. Just as i would hope every dps class has different skills. i would also hope a whm can do things a chemist can't. maybe a chemist cant protect or stoneskin the party. but maybe it can increase a party members max hp by 20%. maybe a whm cant increase a party members max hp with magic but it can cast stoneskin and protect. and maybe they can both heal for equal amounts of hp. (whm via cure spells, chemist via potions and tonics)

what you would have then is 2 completely seperate utilities. imagine your tank has 4000 hp. with a whm to support and stoneskin him maybe he can take 5000 damage and survive. (i forget how potent stoneskin is so ill just say 1000hp) now imagine instead that paladin has a chemist healing him. with a max hp potion maybe that paladin has 4800 hp. thus he could take about 4800 damage and survive. you could argue that in that scenario a whm is marginally superior

But imagine if that paladin had both to support him. he could be sitting there able to take a whopping hit for 5800 damage and still stand. (4000 + 20%maxhp + Stoneskin) that is undoubatbly better than simply having 2 white mages. thus both jobs are able to heal but also bring different abilities to the table.

Again, actually, you have to look at both (not just what they do, also how they do it)..

Were you meant to say that? it sounds like you're agreeing with me and then at the same time completely ignoring it.

Your arguement is:-
WHM should be the best healer because that is what its designed for

which means
<job> should be the best <role> becasue that is what its designed for. <<<<that is your arguement 2 variables <job> and <role>

so...
drg should be the best dps because that is what its designed for
mnk should be the best dps because that is what its designed for.
blm should be the best dps because that is what its designed for.
pld should be the best tank because that is what its designed for.

See the problem?

I want WHM to continue being sole and dominant healer.

I just think it would be better to introduce a new healing class.

[Altanas]

I would rather Green Mage, Chemist, Dancer, Whitemage simply be specs coming from Conjurer

Conjurer -> WHM
Conjurer + Alchemist -> Chemist
Conjurer + ? -> Greenmage
Conjurer + Pugilist -> Dancer
Conjurer by itself -> Elemental specialist aside from BLM

That way we can freely change specs depending on event/tactic but have the base abilities available, without being outcast from parties for not having the right job; and also allowing front and back line jobs the opportunity switch "stances" as it were when you get tired of healing and just want to blow something up or punch something for a change

[fusional]

so, this thread in summary:

multiple tanks? fine. as long as they have different strengths/weaknesses and handle differently

multiple DDs? fine. as long as they have different strengths/weaknesses and handle differently

multiple healers? not fine, no matter what, whether they have different strenghts/weaknesses and handle differently or not. because biased reasons.



ooookay

[SkyeWindbinder]

So in that quote you've told me what a monk does AND how a monk does it. You've then told me what a WHM does but you HAVE NOT said how a whm does it. you are not being consistant. there are 3 variables in this comparison. what a job is. what a job does and how a job does it. you need all 3 of those to justify any arguement.

for white mage you are only giving two variables. what a job is and what a job does. and you are using those to validate your point because by your standards. what a job is is a whm. what a job does is heal. your arguement then is that because of that it should be the best healer.

to apply those same standards to another class. what a job is is a dragoon. what a job does is dps. thus because of that with your arguement a dragoon should be the best dps.

what you are doing however is adding a third variable to dps class but deliberately omitting it from healing. and without consistancy your arguement has no merit.



I would hope a chemist could do things a whm can't otherwise its pointless. Just as i would hope every dps class has different skills. i would also hope a whm can do things a chemist can't. maybe a chemist cant protect or stoneskin the party. but maybe it can increase a party members max hp by 20%. maybe a whm cant increase a party members max hp with magic but it can cast stoneskin and protect. and maybe they can both heal for equal amounts of hp. (whm via cure spells, chemist via potions and tonics)

what you would have then is 2 completely seperate utilities. imagine your tank has 4000 hp. with a whm to support and stoneskin him maybe he can take 5000 damage and survive. (i forget how potent stoneskin is so ill just say 1000hp) now imagine instead that paladin has a chemist healing him. with a max hp potion maybe that paladin has 4800 hp. thus he could take about 4800 damage and survive. you could argue that in that scenario a whm is marginally superior

But imagine if that paladin had both to support him. he could be sitting there able to take a whopping hit for 5800 damage and still stand. (4000 + 20%maxhp + Stoneskin) that is undoubatbly better than simply having 2 white mages. thus both jobs are able to heal but also bring different abilities to the table.



Were you meant to say that? it sounds like you're agreeing with me and then at the same time completely ignoring it.

Your arguement is:-
WHM should be the best healer because that is what its designed for

which means
<job> should be the best <role> becasue that is what its designed for. <<<<that is your arguement 2 variables <job> and <role>

so...
drg should be the best dps because that is what its designed for
mnk should be the best dps because that is what its designed for.
blm should be the best dps because that is what its designed for.
pld should be the best tank because that is what its designed for.

See the problem?

so, this thread in summary:

multiple tanks? fine. as long as they have different strengths/weaknesses and handle differently

multiple DDs? fine. as long as they have different strengths/weaknesses and handle differently

multiple healers? not fine, no matter what, whether they have different strenghts/weaknesses and handle differently or not. because biased reasons.



ooookay

I don't think you get what my meaning is. It's ok, most people don't. lol

My point is, since the WHM is built around the very act of healing, unlike any other class is, it should continue beingthe sole dominant healer. Look, I get it, people want alternatives to using a WHM as a healer. Good enough for them. They can have that. Heck, they really don't have to even have a WHM to heal if there are other classes that can. My point is, it is extremely stupid to have another class out of the ones that already exist that can heal as potently and as well as a WHM. And comparing it to other class' DPS is also nonsensical, because other classes are built for DPS. BLM, built for DPS via black magic. Dragoon, built for DPS via spears. Monk, built for DPS via fists. Comparing the WHM's position is like comparing apples to a wig. The WHM is the only, ONLY class that is built solely and completely around healing. Which is why, until another class that is build solely and completely around healing is introduced, it would be phenomenally stupid for another class out of the existing classes to be able to heal as well and as strongly as a WHM. If you want another class to be comparable to a WHM as far as healing, the ONLY logical way that can happen i if another class built for healing is introduced.

[Kinseykinz]

I think they fear the fate of FFXI's WHM (75 cap). I remember it became very difficult to level from 60+ on WHM due to RDM's superiority in exp pty/general content. Which i guess only got worse with the introduction of DNC and SCH. Although WHM was still useful for Harder difficulty events, its usefulness for everyday events was minimal.

TL;DR situational shit is situational, they fear WHM becoming a niche class only useful in a handful of events.

You mean like the tanks and dps'ers already are? This IS a different game. FFXI had the whole 'deleveling thing' + needing to level in a party. It took time (back in my days of playing) to get a job to level 75 cap. Due to this, people didn't have more than 2-3 jobs leveled to cap (usually). So yes, in FFXI, being overlooked for a party due to job role was sucky but that was typically due to FFXI game mechanics that have been done away with in this game.

In FFXIV, we are ENCOURAGED to level multiple jobs. While yes, there are people who 'only want to play one role', the game itself is designed for people to be flexible. Not only that, if you are in an Endgame LS...there is an expectation that you have at least 2 different job options available (and are good at them) for events.
- There is no de-leveling. So you don't have to constantly exp to remain at level cap.
- You can effectively solo on leves, or regular mobs or party in small groups.
- While we don't know what getting to level 75 will be like in FFXIV, my guess is that it won't be as daunting as FFXI originally was...even if because you won't HAVE to wait for a full exp party to level effectively.

As to the 'yeah, but I only wanna Main White Mage' people: That is a perfectly valid choice, but you need to understand that if you decide to limit yourself to one role/job, then you will not always be the 'first choice' job for all events, content etc. Not all content is designed to be optimal for one job/class...nor should it be. DPSers and tanks in this game already deal with this. Healers should have a little variety too. The difference in this game vs. FFXI on this is that THIS time, the player chooses to limit their choices, the game is not limiting you to being one party role.

[Judge_Xero]

I really like the idea of Chemist as a healer.

Musketeer -> Chemist? (Chemist with Guns in FFT was awesome)

Ranged DPS (Guns)
Ability to use Items from a distance (Throw) Including Debuff items on mobs (Poison, Sleep etc)
Healing abilities - TP Based (non magic, should have low MP pool)

[IndigoDarkwolf]

I don't think you get what my meaning is. It's ok, most people don't. lol

My point is, since the WHM is built around the very act of healing, unlike any other class is, it should continue beingthe sole dominant healer. Look, I get it, people want alternatives to using a WHM as a healer. Good enough for them. They can have that. Heck, they really don't have to even have a WHM to heal if there are other classes that can. My point is, it is extremely stupid to have another class out of the ones that already exist that can heal as potently and as well as a WHM. And comparing it to other class' DPS is also nonsensical, because other classes are built for DPS. BLM, built for DPS via black magic. Dragoon, built for DPS via spears. Monk, built for DPS via fists. Comparing the WHM's position is like comparing apples to a wig. The WHM is the only, ONLY class that is built solely and completely around healing. Which is why, until another class that is build solely and completely around healing is introduced, it would be phenomenally stupid for another class out of the existing classes to be able to heal as well and as strongly as a WHM. If you want another class to be comparable to a WHM as far as healing, the ONLY logical way that can happen i if another class built for healing is introduced.

"Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

Seriously, you make my head hurt, and I really think you're trolling, but in spite of the pain your verbose replies create deep in my brainpan, I think we can agree that there would be room for a new job oriented around healing.

Also, I don't think anybody (within some margin for error) is arguing that the existing jobs should gain healing powers. Certainly, not Dzian.

[SkyeWindbinder]

"Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."

Seriously, you make my head hurt, and I really think you're trolling, but in spite of the pain your verbose replies create deep in my brainpan, I think we can agree that there would be room for a new job oriented around healing.

Also, I don't think anybody (within some margin for error) is arguing that the existing jobs should gain healing powers. Certainly, not Dzian.

lol Perhaps your head hurts because You're just not capable of getting what I'm saying? I get that a lot too. (shrug)

Anyways, I simply stated my point. Some agree. Some disagree. But you're the first who's inability to follow has caused them a headache! I hope you're okay.

[IndigoDarkwolf]

If you want another class to be comparable to a WHM as far as healing, the ONLY logical way that can happen i if another class built for healing is introduced.

I think we can agree that there would be room for a new job oriented around healing.

You're just not capable of getting what I'm saying

Ooookay. Yup, trolololol. I'm done arguing with you.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Ooookay. Yup, trolololol. I'm done arguing with you.

lol Hey, you're the one who claimed to have a headache because you couldn't comprehend! It's not my fault! Other people can give their clashing views and keep up, but it's making your brain hurt. Maybe this discussion is out of your league? Go pop some advil and lay down. ^_^