Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

[Shurrikhan]

Because mobs have many kind of defenses.

Players have only one kind of HP to heal.

Or have only one kind of HP to keep from depleting. You're forgetting damage mitigation, siphoning, defensive triggers, modes of healing, borrows, reversals, any manner of ability or style of ability that keeps people from dying. Curative magic has its own style. It's quick, powerful, easily re-sized. If Conjurer's (or by extension WHM) also made more out of their light elements, those two could be used for damage mitigation, between the offensive (interrupting casts via ARR Water) and defensive (creating earth shields on allies or a whirl of air to intercept ranged attacks, so and and so forth). Having another style of healing will not kill WHM. Having another curative healer would likely get close, just as having another fist-fighter would put Pugilist in a hard position to remain unique.

[JillyBean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUVI5ukXcRI <- This

I am a career WHM so I am completely biased ... but I do not want to see another class healing just as well as the WHM.

In FFXI Dancer was great, SMN was great, they healed but kept their own Identity.

Those SCHs however just rode on the coat tails of the BLM and WHM... I do not want to see that happen again

That video was amazing! And I am in 100% agreement with your post. I don't want people takin' mah job!

[Duelle]

The main issue is the standard MMO has "healers" and Final Fantasy has made a staple with healing with a White Mage role job. If it wasnt specifically a WHM it was a person/role that was perceived as the White Mage. There is no need to change that formula it has worked and will continue to work.

Except it did not work in FFXI. Not when other jobs that happened to be cursed with MP bars were shoehorned into healing because there weren't enough White Mages around. And if they had an advantageous mechanic because they weren't designed to be healers, WHM was then kicked to the curb. We've seen the results already, which makes it surprising to see people that don't want to move on from that type of design.

Yes, console FFs have a staple healer in WHM, and that's fine for console FFs. XI and XIV are MMORPGs, and as such the rules have to be bent and other types of design should at the least be considered, because not everything from the console FFs can effectively translate into an MMORPG.

Not as many people are interested in playing a HP restorative role as much as "beat them up" or some other role. Thus no need for adding another specific HP restorative role. Especially when you have jobs that support the WHM such as Paladin, Summoner, Bard, Dancer, etc.

Depends on the person. As a whole, yes, you have more people that want to DPS over healing and tanking. Now consider how much smaller that number gets when healing and tanking get funneled into 1 class each.

As I said in the OP, I hate healing. I've always hated healing. And yet even I found a style of healing I liked to play when I discovered attack heals.

[Daniolaut]

Except it did not work in FFXI.

I cannot specifically speak for FFXI. (Here is a perfect opportunity for FFXI fans to step in.)

What I can do is speak for FFXIV, and vs. 1.0 I didnt see any issues at all to any degree. FFXIV is a new system, and from what i've seen its been an improvement on so many levels.

XI and XIV are MMORPGs, and as such the rules have to be bent and other types of design should at the least be considered, because not everything from the console FFs can effectively translate into an MMORPG.

I agree options should always be considered. What i dont agree with is just because its an MMO and said style works in other MMO's doesnt mean its required in this MMO. Again even with a large group 24 member raids, with the supportive roles and 2 or so WHM's (depending on the dungeon) there is still no need for multiple "healing" specific roles.

Depends on the person. As a whole, yes, you have more people that want to DPS over healing and tanking. Now consider how much smaller that number gets when healing and tanking get funneled into 1 class each.

1 main healing role, and other supportive roles.

If you dont like healing that is your thing, and I feel personally should further deter you from making suggestions to a class you dont play when there are many other people, such as myself who do play the role.

[Dzian]

A WHM's specialty is how well it can heal

A WHM's speciality is not how well it can heal. it's specialty is how well it uses healing magic. they are 2 separate things.

You need to be consistent and distinguish jobs and roles.

You see, monk and lancer are both given different ways they can do damage best. That's how they are specialized in their own way. Yes, they both do DPS, I mean, duh, that goes without saying. But their specialty is how they do their DPS. A WHM's specialty is how well it can heal..

What you are saying is that for mnks/drgs or any dps there specialty is HOW they do their dps. (not what they do but how they do it)

To be consistent you must then say a WHMs specialty is HOW they do their healing. (again not what they do but how they do it)

You have to look at all jobs from the same angle if you want to be fair and objective.
What you are saying is that a monks specialty is its job within a role.
but a WHMs specialty is its role.

To say a WHMs specialty is healing as a role. You must then say monks specialty is dps as a role. In which case why do we then need more than 1 dps class?

If we had chemist as an example given in this thread. Its specialty could be healing items like potions and remedies.

In that case it shares a healing role with WHM but it's specialty is completely different. Just as the specialty of monks and dragoons is completely different even though they share the same role. (DPS)

Which is why it would not really make sense for another class to be able to heal as well as a WHM. In fact, it would actually be phenomenally stupid for another class to be able to, unless they too are bred for healing as WHM is (like a cleric or priest or something like that).

If you were to change that to "Which is why it wouldn't make sense for another class to be able to use healing MAGIC as well as a WHM." I would agree with you. but healing magic is not necessarily the only way to heal.

You must look at all jobs the same way. Each job has 2 key components?
1:- What they do. and
2:- How they do it.

This seems to be the big thing that a lot of people are missing. but you can ask those 2 questions about any job in any final fantasy game. even ones that fit multiple roles such as bards being dps/support.

If you dont like healing that is your thing, and I feel personally should further deter you from making suggestions to a class you dont play when there are many other people, such as myself who do play the role.

Duelle's point is that often it's not what a job does that deters people from playing it. but how that job does it.. He said above he found a healing role oriented around attack heals to be fun. thus he would likely play a healing role more willingly if that option was there.

[Daniolaut]

Duelle's point is that often it's not what a job does that deters people from playing it. but how that job does it.. He said above he found a healing role oriented around attack heals to be fun. thus he would likely play a healing role more willingly if that option was there.

That is nothing like any Final Fantasy I have ever played to any degree except one thing: A healing staff.

An item rarely used to heal, as it was used to attack the undead. What it sounds like to me you are interested in other MMO's and know very little of Final Fantasy.

I personally prefer Final Fantasy over other games. I enjoyed playing WHM, I liked the style of the role it provided. I feel there is no need to have it replaced or even measured up to.

I am for a Chemist type job, but even those are not primarily focused on healing as much as they are supportive.

Maybe an explanation on why you dislike WHM so much is in order? I know so far, according to the posts here the thread is split. Half being for additional job/s and half against. The ones against do not play WHM the other half do play WHM. The trend here is showing that the job is very fun, and enjoyable, and there is no need for more roles, yet the people who do not play it know little about the role but feel it needs a counterpart? (this is an assumption please elaborate if I am mistaken.)

[IndigoDarkwolf]

The trend here is showing that the job is very fun, and enjoyable, and there is no need for more roles

The trend I've observed is that a lot of people feel that any other healer would, by the mere fact of its existence, either be superior to the WHM and replace it or would have to be inferior to the WHM and never be wanted in anything. I think that's either tragically naive or foolishly reductionist.

I've yet to see one person from that side of the fence acknowledge the possibility of other healer playstyles being possible, except for lack of faith in FFXIV's designers to balance the class properly or take advantage of its unique strengths to cater some elements of primal battles towards one style and other elements towards other styles. That would be an argument I could at least understand, because asymmetrical mechanics are hard to balance against each other.

I really can't understand why so many people feel that you can't even change the aesthetics of the WHM (new animations, outfits, weapon class and design, etc) but otherwise identically copy the class into something new, without crying "oh no, CHM/GRN/SMN/WWZ/PND is going to replace WHM!"

And given how many people acknowledge that there was a shortage of WHMs in 1.0 (and some observing how a lack of WHMs in XI led to shoe-horning non-healer jobs into healer roles), I would think more people would be interested in exploring the possibility of a second healer, even if the only difference were aesthetic.

[Daniolaut]

The trend I've observed is that a lot of people feel that any other healer would, by the mere fact of its existence, either be superior to the WHM and replace it or would have to be inferior to the WHM and never be wanted in anything. I think that's either tragically naive or foolishly reductionist.

I've yet to see one person from that side of the fence acknowledge the possibility of other healer playstyles being possible, except for lack of faith in FFXIV's designers to balance the class properly or take advantage of its unique strengths to cater some elements of primal battles towards one style and other elements towards other styles. That would be an argument I could at least understand, because asymmetrical mechanics are hard to balance against each other.

I really can't understand why so many people feel that you can't even change the aesthetics of the WHM (new animations, outfits, weapon class and design, etc) but otherwise identically copy the class into something new, without crying "oh no, CHM/GRN/SMN/WWZ/PND is going to replace WHM!"

And given how many people acknowledge that there was a shortage of WHMs in 1.0 (and some observing how a lack of WHMs in XI led to shoe-horning non-healer jobs into healer roles), I would think more people would be interested in exploring the possibility of a second healer, even if the only difference were aesthetic.

You've turned my opinion into a sign of "whiny, naive, and foolish" -ness. Yet you clearly missed what I and quite possibly many others are trying to point out.

WHM is a FF trademark. Its is, and has been known as the designated "healer."

Its not a matter of what other MMO's do, or what people who dont play the job think, its a matter of formula.

Again you havent stated a real valid point yet. So far your statement is you dont play WHM because you dont like it, thus you request another class. This is not solid grounds for arguing that SE should change the famed FF formula. Other companies can get away with throwing whatever out there because they dont have a good formula that works, or that is defined.

We all acknowledge the possibility of another healing job, and know the current development team is more than capable of properly balancing the job, the problem is that its completely unnecessary. (I highly doubt anyone in this entire forum is that completely uninformed and "naive." I also doubt you honestly believe that, and you are instead, just trying to use aggressive persuasiveness, which sadly works often times on the internet for some unknown reason.)

Please state why its needed. To my knowledge there was not a lack of WHM's, and if there were, its because people just dont like healing, no matter what the job. WHM, IMO, is by far the most perfected healing job.

Also take into consideration we are awaiting Final Fantasy XIV:A Realm Reborn, which will usher in a change to all the jobs, and their style of play.

[Babydoll]

I wouldn't mind Dancer in FFXIV! It actually made healing fun haha.

[Aion]

I get impression people here afraid if there is another job for healing role, WHM will be neglected, or will not be iconic anymore....

Final Fantasy franchise is known for its recurring theme, and also for its innovation. Adding another job for healing purpose will not kill WHM presence, trust me. The argument for adding another job for healing role is, there are some playstyle that yet to be explored. We got nice variation on DPS role, and enough for tanks. Why limit healing?