Pipe Dreams: Expanding the healer pool

[Wolfie]

I want to see party roles be shared by multiple classes, because having only 1 class that is a 'viable' healer, only 1 class that is a 'viable' tank, and 2376326089 classes that are DPS/CC is stupid as hell.

[Mychael]

I want to see party roles be shared by multiple classes, because having only 1 class that is a 'viable' healer, only 1 class that is a 'viable' tank, and 2376326089 classes that are DPS/CC is stupid as hell.

I have to disagree, because in a party, you only need one tank and one healer; the rest of the slots are DD. By having several healer jobs, parties would be forced to choose one over the other unless the job had a specific identity other than healing.. Since you need multiple DD jobs in a party, they're a lot less competitive. Yes, you might do better if you stack all of one, but so what if one of five DD aren't the optimal class? But if there were two healers, anything that gave either an advantage (whether real or just invented by popular opinion) would make the class the ONLY OPTION in the closed minds of FFXIV players.

With respect to AoE heals, there would be obvious situations where AoE low healing would make that class the ONLY OPTION (if a mob spams AoE), and situations where a high-value single-target healer would be paramount to success (anything else). That's not doing anything for making interchangeable healers of equal efficacy.

[Wolfie]

I have to disagree, because in a party, you only need one tank and one healer; the rest of the slots are DD. By having several healer jobs, parties would be forced to choose one over the other unless the job had a specific identity other than healing.. Since you need multiple DD jobs in a party, they're a lot less competitive. Yes, you might do better if you stack all of one, but so what if one of five DD aren't the optimal class? But if there were two healers, anything that gave either an advantage (whether real or just invented by popular opinion) would make the class the ONLY OPTION in the closed minds of FFXIV players.

With respect to AoE heals, there would be obvious situations where AoE low healing would make that class the ONLY OPTION (if a mob spams AoE), and situations where a high-value single-target healer would be paramount to success (anything else). That's not doing anything for making interchangeable healers of equal efficacy.

So, it's okay to choose between DPS classes, but not okay to have a choice in tank and healer classes, is what you're getting at?

What mental gymnastics got you there, and in this scenario why can't we just have one DPS class and that's it? Why does the game need variability in DPS classes, but not in tank and healers?

[fusional]

because in a party

good thing we're not limited to single party content in ARR, right?!

Since you need multiple DD jobs in a party, they're a lot less competitive. Yes, you might do better if you stack all of one, but so what if one of five DD aren't the optimal class?

lol, this guy

But if there were two healers, anything that gave either an advantage (whether real or just invented by popular opinion) would make the class the ONLY OPTION in the closed minds of FFXIV players.

you mean like pld vs. war? so people would prefer one healer over the other situationally, depending on the content? which is how it already works with tanks and dps? and somehow this *isn't* okay for healers?

face. palm.

With respect to AoE heals, there would be obvious situations where AoE low healing would make that class the ONLY OPTION (if a mob spams AoE), and situations where a high-value single-target healer would be paramount to success (anything else). That's not doing anything for making interchangeable healers of equal efficacy.

because, once again- the only content we'll see in ARR is single party content, right? and god forbid we see single-party content requiring TWO HEALERS which might actually benefit from bringing along two different kinds of healers with different strengths?

not trying to be rude, but... you don't have a lot of raiding/endgame experience, do you?

[Mychael]

good thing we're not limited to single party content in ARR, right?!

I never said you were limited. Are you suggesting that there is no more single-party content?

lol, this guy

If one out of six of DD jobs aren't exactly what you need, then your losses are <17% at max. If your healer is geared toward AoE heals (as someone suggested earler), or healing over time, but the mob is doing spike damage on one player, then there's really only one option. I don't see how that's funny. >.>;

lyou mean like pld vs. war? so people would prefer one healer over the other situationally, depending on the content? which is how it already works with tanks and dps? and somehow this *isn't* okay for healers?

I don't think it's okay for DD or tanks either, but this topic was on the creation of new healing jobs, rather than the balance of old jobs.

lface. palm.



because, once again- the only content we'll see in ARR is single party content, right?

I addressed single-party content only--you already called me out on that yourself. With large-scale raids, it really doesn't matter how your healers work; if you have only low-potency healers, the quantity can make up for a lack of high-volume healers. If you have a lot of high-potency healing, they can spread out and kind of accomplish the same thing. Of course there could be an advantage to having different healers with different strengths, but I don't see it as essential for a raid as they're all serving the exact same purpose of regenerating HP.

and god forbid we see single-party content requiring TWO HEALERS which might actually benefit from bringing along two different kinds of healers with different strengths?

not trying to be rude, but... you don't have a lot of raiding/endgame experience, do you?

So, it's okay to choose between DPS classes, but not okay to have a choice in tank and healer classes, is what you're getting at?




What mental gymnastics got you there, and in this scenario why can't we just have one DPS class and that's it? Why does the game need variability in DPS classes, but not in tank and healers?

With DPS, the different types are (at a basic level) ranged, magic, and melee. You could even consider sub-divisions such as piercing, slashing, blunt, etc, or combinations (if RDMs in XI were actually able to melee with En-spells in XI, Enhancement Shamans or Paladins (don't they get 10% light damage and some light magic?) in WoW). The mobs have several different defenses for each of those. Healing, at a base level, is always going to give someone their health back. En masse (i.e. a raid/endgame event), it doesn't really matter what denomination over what amount of time--100 every second will equal out to 500 every 5 seconds, etc, whereas different types of attacks will not necessarily balance out.

I think it's a good idea to invent multiple kinds of healing, but I don't see a plausible way to differentiate between them where either 1) they're all not doing EXACTLY the same thing or 2) one becomes the only option.

That said, there is already competition among DD classes, but I think that imbalance is something people typically complain about, not try to increase. Why should we create it among healing classes?

If someone was suggesting a job that reduced HP loss by some other mechanic than directly "Player regains XXX hp," I'd be all for it--such as a class that specialized in damage prevention.

EDIT: Zantetsuken suggested something like this above--this I could approve of.

Bishop (2nd PGL job - inspired by FFTA) uses "Preventative Healing" - Healing spells recover a % target's current HP - can over-heal up to 120% of Max HP. (this style of healing is good for preparation for big battles, or to keep a tank healthy - it's potency drops greatly as the target loses HP)

I'm going to Disagree with your disagreement. there needs to be many more options for viable tank and healer jobs/classes. while a party may only need 1 tank. In my experience it is often that one key role that you lack. Its something XI. and to a slightly lesser degree 1.0 both suffered.

In 1.0 there were days where i'd often see 4 or 5 shouts for the same thing by different groups but all of those groups needed the same thing often a tank. It became slightly less problematic with the pld buffs but still existed. in XI though there were times where you would sit in whitegate 5/6 in an exp party for sometimes a couple of hours just hoping to find a tank because there werent enough options.

true with healers as well in 1.0 you'd do some primal dungeon whatever you're whm would drop to go to bed and you'd struggle to find another healer because it was the only option.

I don't know that this was due to a lack of available options. I think a lot of people just don't WANT to tank or heal.

[Wolfie]

With DPS, the different types are (at a basic level) ranged, magic, and melee. You could even consider sub-divisions such as piercing, slashing, blunt, etc, or combinations (if RDMs in XI were actually able to melee with En-spells in XI, Enhancement Shamans or Paladins (don't they get 10% light damage and some light magic?) in WoW). The mobs have several different defenses for each of those. Healing, at a base level, is always going to give someone their health back. En masse (i.e. a raid/endgame event), it doesn't really matter what denomination over what amount of time--100 every second will equal out to 500 every 5 seconds, etc, whereas different types of attacks will not necessarily balance out.

Devil's advocate, but why is there "different kinds of DPS"? Why do we need it? Why can't we have one DPS that just has all the tools, and all of the monsters have no weaknesses or strengths? At the "base level", all DPS does is make the monster HP go down, who cares how they do it, right? You can simplify every job and class to it's one thing, and if you're saying that some roles only need to have one play style, then why shouldn't the others?

I think it's a good idea to invent multiple kinds of healing, but I don't see a plausible way to differentiate between them where either 1) they're all not doing EXACTLY the same thing or 2) one becomes the only option.

There are tons of ways you can differentiate a healer or tank class in terms of mechanics and aesthetics. There are heal over time spells, pets, damage shields, whatever. The list of things you can make your character do to accomplish its role is only limited by you (or the devs') imagination.

That said, there is already competition among DD classes, but I think that imbalance is something people typically complain about, not try to increase. Why should we create it among healing classes?

Why not? Are healers privileged in that they shouldn't have to deal with competition?

Or why not remove the imbalance from DPS by only having one DPS class?

It's the developers' job to give us both multiple options for a role we want to do, and to have the classes that do those roles be balanced enough that people aren't left out.

[Dzian]

I don't know that this was due to a lack of available options. I think a lot of people just don't WANT to tank or heal.

I think a lot of that comes down to diversity. I may not want to play whm and stand still throwing cures, but that doesnt necessarily mean I don't want to heal. maybe I'd simply like alternative ways of doing it. Making by converting the damage I do against a boss into hp for my party or some other totally differnet style.

Its similar to the PLD vs NIN thing in XI. both could tank but were 2 very different styles. There was a lot of diversity in XI and XIV needs alot of diversity also. It's often not just a case of people dont like healing or dont like tanking. They simply dont like the playstyle of paladins and white mages. In XI for example I was never really a fan of WHM but I enjoyed RDM a lot. Especially in the the situations where I could dark seal aspir mobs. It felt a much more diverse role than whm and thus I enjoyed it more.

[Dzian]

I have to disagree, because in a party, you only need one tank and one healer; the rest of the slots are DD. By having several healer jobs, parties would be forced to choose one over the other unless the job had a specific identity other than healing.. Since you need multiple DD jobs in a party, they're a lot less competitive. Yes, you might do better if you stack all of one, but so what if one of five DD aren't the optimal class? But if there were two healers, anything that gave either an advantage (whether real or just invented by popular opinion) would make the class the ONLY OPTION in the closed minds of FFXIV players.

I'm going to Disagree with your disagreement. there needs to be many more options for viable tank and healer jobs/classes. while a party may only need 1 tank. In my experience it is often that one key role that you lack. Its something XI. and to a slightly lesser degree 1.0 both suffered.

In 1.0 there were days where i'd often see 4 or 5 shouts for the same thing by different groups but all of those groups needed the same thing often a tank. It became slightly less problematic with the pld buffs but still existed. in XI though there were times where you would sit in whitegate 5/6 in an exp party for sometimes a couple of hours just hoping to find a tank because there werent enough options.

true with healers as well in 1.0 you'd do some primal dungeon whatever you're whm would drop to go to bed and you'd struggle to find another healer because it was the only option.