Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Velhart]

It's whatever, it how I would like it. but I know others won't agree, which is fine also. Facepalming won't get any of us anywhere. This whole thread is opinions, in which should wait till we see how 2.0 beta works. Who knows what can happen.

Indeed. Here is to the future!

[fusional]

Black mage can generate more hate then both PLA & WAR put together

on any content that matters, this is categorically false- as evidenced by the video i posted. and before you even get started- i can assure you dragoon does far more damage than black mage on the fight. we thoroughly tested it.

[Hyrist]

lolwut? i.. what?

You heard me. There was flatly more HP to play around with on your average Warrior.

Yes, paladins had the extra defense, but Nael still hit hard regardless and more than once the Paladins would dip into the red where a warrior would be orange/yellow from a similar attack.

Paladin's higher defence and self curing meant less work for the White Mage, but their HP seemed much more volitle in terms of risk.

Your mileage may vary, as you were in the top 5% of all players, but I was playing with pick-up groups.

That's part of being a dps, you were doing it right.

The dps mentality of DPS DPS DPS DPS, for some situations it's fine when you "have" to get things done before death comes knocking but dps should always be paying attention to there situation, others situations and their hate control in battle. Sounds to me like your just doing your job right unlike many that seemingly want to burn through content as fast as possible and think we tanks can compensate for their stupidity.

There is a timer to concern yourself with as well. And while I know to lower my DPS to compensate for lacking in hate management (on my end or his) it also means I'm doing less and we're using up more than the timer. Now, if we go ahead and make the timer all is well and good. But I like having a wide margin for error.

To put it bluntly, if I had to cut power surge to keep my hate from out pacing the tank, there's a problem. That was a problem I had with Warriors. I can't recall a time I had that problem with Paladins.

In trade, I have seen a Warrior survive situations where a Paladin died in similar circumstances. I attribute this mainly due to the larger HP pool, not due to better defensive measures.

Which there it is. It's a matter of preference. I do believe both camps underestimate one another during this argument, and my hopes for SE is that they've created battles that involve both jobs. We've 8 party slots and 8 jobs. No reason why not to think up ways each job can contribute in a unique way each fight. It only gets tough to juggle once we start adding more.

I don't think each classes base capabilities need to be radically changed to achieve this, so much as performance tweaking (upwards) to make each class feel strong enough in the given circumstance, while still feeling challenged. Which isn't hard if they keep with the multi-objective based gameplay they've trended so far.

[Duelle]

just leave them both tanks, already have more DD then anything.

Roster of tanks: PLD, WAR

Roster of Healers: WHM

Roster of DPS: MNK, DRG, BLM

Outliers: BRD

Going by ratios, what we need most is another healing job. Could be Chemist (provided they use guns that shoot salve pellets for minor heals with larger concoctions that heal for more), could be Green Mage (HoTs, burst heals that consume said HoTs).

2 tanks: 3 DPS is actually pretty good. Could stand to add another DPS (SMN) and it would still not be lopsided.

[fusional]

You still don't understand, and you're missing the point.

no, you're missing the logic and projecting onto me.

I'll give you a scenario this time.. If you cant find a PLD, then you have a second choice. WAR, a good backup tank that has the ability to DD.

idiotic. if paladin is superior to warrior in ALL situations, and therefore preferable in ALL situations, in this scenario the community would just wait until they could find a paladin rather than running with a suboptimal tank. the shouts would demand paladin and warriors would be shunned. if you think any differently, you are completely naive.

what did pugs bring to CC? blackmages. how often did you hear about pug monks being accepted? rarely, almost never. why? because blackmage was better than monk in nearly every situation in that dungeon. so it was never a "ehhh no blackmages available, grab the monk" it was "ehhhh wait for another blackmage, or force that guy to switch to blm"

Your analogy for other DD jobs is not a valid point either. Each of them plays differently.

you mean like how WAR and PLD play differently? oh. oh yeah. so here you underscore my point. different DPS thrive in different situations (monk for MM, dragoon for princess, blm for coincounter...) and different tanks do as well (aoe tanking vs. single target, fast hitting vs. slow hitting mob, heavy healing requirement vs. light healing requirement)

I shouldn't have to be explaining all this.

go ahead and try to patronize me, though. it won't end well for you, kiddo. but let me just say that it's funny that you're taking the haughty UGH GOD Y I HAVE 2 EXPLAIN 2 U route when you're *contradicting yourself* in the first place. no, it's me that shouldn't need to explain this *to you*

So, I beg the question. What else is PLD good for? What about Warrior? Make a comparison.

i've already said what they're good for and i've provided evidence. disagree all you want, but you'd either be living in a fantasy land or a land of woefully outdated information/experiences.

[fusional]

all i'm really getting from this thread is "fuck logic. paladin should be the alpha and omega of tanking because paladin is what I play/prefer"

oh, and one more thing-

The fact is Warrior is good at DPS as well as Tanking

that isn't a fact. in fact, warrior is pretty awful at DPS in every single situation except for one in which they can spam SC for aoe damage. and even then, they can very easily be outdamaged by other classes with aoe if those other classes are played well.

warrior's DPS is actually really, really bad comparatively.

[Abriael]

warrior's DPS is actually really, really bad comparatively.

Compared to a Paladin, no, it's not.

Those that say that PLD and WAR should be equal in tanking capabilities completely forget the most basic idea of balance.

Paladin is a specialized job.
Warrior is a hybrid job.

A specialized job can only do one thing, and needs to be better than any hybrid job at doing that thing, or it will be undesirable (exactly like it was in 1.0).

Unless you nerf warrior's damage into oblivion, and to be precise to the same level of paladin (which simply wouldn't make sense, and would confuse people, with a class wielding a giant axe turning into one that hits like a pansy) their defensive abilities shouldn't in any way be comparable to those of a paladin, as balance dictates that the sum of two classes' abilities needs to be equal.

If a warrior can tank as well as a paladin, but deals more damage, warrior will almost always be preferred to paladin unless specific mechanics situationally push the other way (and that's not enough of a balancer) to anyone that cares about efficiency. If two classes have the same defense and one has better attack, you chose the latter, because it makes for a faster fight, and a faster fight means an easier fight.

Higher attack and better versaitility need to come with a tradeoff (everything needs to come as a tradeoff, Paladin's tradeoff for having the best defensive abilities comes at the price that their attack sucks), and the omly possible tradeoff is less defensive abilities.

It's really pretty simple. In a game in which there's only space for one main tank every eight people, having two main tank classes is excessive, and means that one of them will struggle at finding room.

Warrior's desirability can be preserved simply with coding encounters making dynamic offtanking a necessity.

Paladin should be the kings of main tanking in every situation.
Warriors should be the kings of off tanking, with good snap-aggro abilities and good (but not exceptional) defense, able to double up as a damager if there's the need for it, or as a situational main tank if there's no PLD available, with the tradeoff of more strain on the healers.

If encounters require dynamic off tanking, both classes have their roles, both classes are desirable.

If PLD and WAR have the same defensive abilities but differing offense, the one with the higher offense will generally be the most desirable, pushing the other out of the picture. That's an iron-clad equation and it's not acceptable in any MMORPG that holds class balance in any value.

[BumblebeeTuna]

idiotic. if paladin is superior to warrior in ALL situations, and therefore preferable in ALL situations, in this scenario the community would just wait until they could find a paladin rather than running with a suboptimal tank. the shouts would demand paladin and warriors would be shunned. if you think any differently, you are completely naive.

That is false. PLD was only required for hardmode darnus and ifrit extreme anything else a war tank was fine...i can atest to this fact as i tanked everything in the game on war from ifrit hard -> garuda -> 17min speed runs. SC nerf was hurtful to war but it didn't really make a difference. Also war are good at dps, a war in my LS topped the parse on ifrit extreme..just gotta know what youre doing.

tank choice was really optional depending on the player barring the 2 fights that pld was just the much better choice.

[Duelle]

Those that say that PLD and WAR should be equal in tanking capabilities completely forget the most basic idea of balance.

Not really, we just take into account the fact that niche gameplay sucks in the long run and it sucks even more when it involves roles like tanking and healing.

Paladin is a specialized job.
Warrior is a hybrid job.

Shame on you for bringing the pure vs hybrid nonsense to this thread. Not to mention, as you have seen here some are asking for WAR to be either DPS or a tank.

Unless you nerf warrior's damage into oblivion, and to be precise to the same level of paladin (which simply wouldn't make sense, and would confuse people, with a class wielding a giant axe turning into one that hits like a pansy) their defensive abilities shouldn't in any way be comparable to those of a paladin, as balance dictates that the sum of two classes' abilities needs to be equal.

Why would anyone have to nerf WAR's damage into oblivion? If you can't wrap your head around the idea of WAR (a two-hander wielder) and PLD (a sword & board user) being tanks and performing equally to the point they're replaceable, I'll give you an example.

This guy and this guy could both main tank a raid in WoW. Both were close to equal performance and were more than acceptable for the task. Both could even work together in encounters that required multiple tanks and one was not inferior to the other at the end of the day. One is a death knight wielding a two-handed sword/mace/axe, and the other one is a prot warrior wielding sword/mace/axe and shield.

So it can work, believe it or not. Adjustments on both ends will have to be made, but it's not as outlandish as some claim it is.

[Abriael]

Not really, we just take into account the fact that niche gameplay sucks in the long run and it sucks even more when it involves roles like tanking and healing.

Sorry to burst a bubble, butr "it sucks" doesn't a valid balance argument make.

Shame on you for bringing the pure vs hybrid nonsense to this thread. Not to mention, as you have seen here some are asking for WAR to be either DPS or a tank.

Can't be either a DPS or a tank. There are already enough pure DPS classes in the game, and you can't make a class with a giant axe without sizable DPS capabilities. Players shouldn't be required to read a class description before chosing, and a degree of identification between looks and role is necessary.

Why would anyone have to nerf WAR's damage into oblivion? If you can't wrap your head around the idea of WAR (a two-hander wielder) and PLD (a sword & board user) being tanks and performing equally to the point they're replaceable, I'll give you an example.

This guy and this guy could both main tank a raid in WoW. Both were close to equal performance and were more than acceptable for the task. Both could even work together in encounters that required multiple tanks and one was not inferior to the other at the end of the day. One is a death knight wielding a two-handed sword/mace/axe, and the other one is a prot warrior wielding sword/mace/axe and shield.

So it can work, believe it or not. Adjustments on both ends will have to be made, but it's not as outlandish as some claim it is.

"But it works in wow!" does not a valid balance argument make. WoW is a completely different game, with a completely different userbase and completely different mechanics and class balance synergies.

If you can't make an actually functional argument based on FFXIV's mechanics, may as well bring none.

Everything in a balanced game needs to come at a price, to preserve balance.

Paladin pays for its defense abilities with it's inability to deal decent damage.

DPS classes pay for their high attack with their inability to tank.

What does warrior pay for it's defense abilities with again? And no, having to wear a silly horned helmet doesn't count.