Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Starlord]

Bad design in the long run, so I vote no.

PLD has always been the king of Tanks, now your telling me that they shouldn't be? :/

[Duelle]

PLD has always been the king of Tanks, now your telling me that they shouldn't be? :/

You're correct. PLD should be member of a roster of tanks rather than the end-all-be-all messiah of tanking. PLD and his cohorts should perform equally in the role of tanking rather than being the flat out best choice out of the tank pool. It's better in the long run.

[Velhart]

PLD has always been the king of Tanks, now your telling me that they shouldn't be? :/

No they shouldn't be. It completely closes the door for other potential tanks. Just like different DPS, you need different tanks. You don't look at player perspective. One may want to tank, but doesn't find being a sword and shield holy magic user interesting, while at the same time, they like the idea of being a barbaric like tank who swings his axe around. By your logic, we should also have a "King of DPS" or "King of Healing". I don't want WHM being the only good healer, I don't want "Put whatever DPS you think is king here", every role should have multiple options, thus the term "Role Playing Game". I want new tanks, healers, and DPS in the future. I like a game that gives me a grand amount of choices within one role, not be forced to cater to one.

So yes, the idea stinks, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Also, the idea of "back-up tank" is only good in a sense that you are sharing hate with someone, as practiced in various 25-man like raids. How it works is, two equally good tanks (or one better than the other depending on gear and skill) holds the mob off, and when he is about worn down, the other tank takes it from him, then when he is worn that, the first tank takes it back. However, the idea of only making WAR a back up tank is ill thought of and unfair to WAR enthusiast.

[Starlord]

You're correct. PLD should be member of a roster of tanks rather than the end-all-be-all messiah of tanking. PLD and his cohorts should perform equally in the role of tanking rather than being the flat out best choice out of the tank pool. It's better in the long run.

Equally be able to hold hate, but the DEF will different from job to job?

PLD DEF= 205
WAR DEF= 185

[Sorel]

One of the problems (I think may be the #1 problem) voiced by the community regarding classes in the Player Polls was a lack of class/job distinctiveness in Tanaka's FFXIV. The Yoshida FFXIV 1.23 version was an attempt to experiment on how to address that problem. Adjustments from that 1.23 experiment may or may not be in the beta. We'll have to wait and see.

So if lack of distinctiveness was a problem, we should tread carefully when we ask for multiple jobs to be able to fill a single role ... less we backslide.

Part of the problem is that if we were to rank all the Jobs from FFXIV 1.23 by role, WAR is #2 for both DD and Tanking. PLD is #1 for Tanking, but is at or near the bottom in every other role.

It's the same problem that WHM had with RDM in FFXI. WHM in FFXI was #1 in the healer role. But because RDM was #2 in healing and #2 for Buffing/Debuffing, it caused problems similar to what people in this thread are talking about now.

So is the solution to make WAR a little bit worse at Tanking, or to make PLD so much better at Tanking??

I do not think so. Neither solution would change the fact that WAR would STILL be the #2 best tank. You would have to gimp WAR so badly in tanking (like DRK in FFXI) that it would not be #2 anymore. But even if you do that, MNK or DRG would just take WAR's #2 spot in Tanking and PLD would still have the same problem, just versus a different Job.

I believe the best solution is to make PLD #2 at something else other than Tanking or DD. Two of the more obvious choices would be either the healer or buffer/debuffer roles. We have seen a successful front-line healer in FFXI's Dancer job. Change all the dance steps names to knightly names and one could almost see how natural it would fit.

Anyway, my point is that we should not diminish WAR's flexibility to make PLD better. Just make PLD more flexible.

[Starlord]

No they shouldn't be. It completely closes the door for other potential tanks. Just like different DPS, you need different tanks. You don't look at player perspective. One may want to tank, but doesn't find being a sword and shield holy magic user interesting, while at the same time, they like the idea of being a barbaric like tank who swings his axe around. By your logic, we should also have a "King of DPS" or "King of Healing". I don't want WHM being the only good healer, I don't want "Put whatever DPS you think is king here", every role should have multiple options, thus the term "Role Playing Game". I want new tanks, healers, and DPS in the future. I like a game that gives me a grand amount of choices within one role, not be forced to cater to one.

So yes, the idea stinks, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Also, the idea of "back-up tank" is only good in a sense that you are sharing hate with someone, as practiced in various 25-man like raids. How it works is, two equally good tanks (or one better than the other depending on gear and skill) holds the mob off, and when he is about worn down, the other tank takes it from him, then when he is worn that, the first tank takes it back. However, the idea of only making WAR a back up tank is ill thought of and unfair to WAR enthusiast.

So your telling me say there's 3 tank class that are all "Equal" in the nature of tanking. What would make those 3 classes " Diverse? If they are just "clones" of one job to the next, What would be fun of leveling up 3 classes that do essentially the same thing?

There's nothing "wrong" with having more than 1 tank. However, if they all do the same things then how is one Tank job any different from another tank job?

There has to be a Major Difference between those classes in order to make them classes, or else they are just clones with a different name.

Edit: and when your talking about DDers, that's a totally different subject.

DRG= Crit Hit Master
WAR= High DMG Master/ Can play the role as a tank
BRD= Buffing Support
MNK= Chain Attacking/Fast Paced Punching
WHM= Healing ( Has all Tiers Healing related spells)
BLM= Nuking ( Has all Tiers in Elemental related spells)
PLD= Master of Tanking ( Controls hate, Can heal himself Occasionally)

Each job has there own role to play. Each class is a "master" in one end and Noobish on the other. Diversity goes a long way in an MMO.

[Duelle]

Also, the idea of "back-up tank" is only good in a sense that you are sharing hate with someone, as practiced in various 25-man like raids. How it works is, two equally good tanks (or one better than the other depending on gear and skill) holds the mob off, and when he is about worn down, the other tank takes it from him, then when he is worn that, the first tank takes it back.

Indeed. An easy example would be if you had an 8-man fight against Valigarmanda (AKA Tritoch, the tri-elemental esper from FFVI).

Say Vali has a debuff called Tri-Burden that places an elemental debuff that stacks on the tank that picks it up at the start of the fight. Applied in the order of Fire=>Blizzard=>Thunder, which each stack being applied every 20 seconds but wears off if not renewed in 30 seconds from being applied. Once tank 1 gets three stacks of Tri-Burden, tank 2 takes aggro while tank 1 loses the debuff due to not being Vali's primary target. Tank 2 gets three stacks, tank 1 takes over again. And back and forth we go.

You can't have a "backup" tank as part of this because the boss would tear said backup tank two pieces. Both tanks have to be able to perform and mitigate as close to equally as possible.

[Velhart]

So your telling me say there's 3 tank class that are all "Equal" in the nature of tanking. What would make those 3 classes " Diverse? If they are just "clones" of one job to the next, What would be fun of leveling up 3 classes that do essentially the same thing?

There's nothing "wrong" with having more than 1 tank. However, if they all do the same things then how is one Tank job any different from another tank job?

There has to be a Major Difference between those classes in order to make them classes, or else they are just clones with a different name.

Okay, then what is the point of having more than one DPS that are all "Equal" in the nature of dealing damage? Also, who is forced to play more than one tank role? One person may prefer using DPS to hold hate like WAR, and some like to use enmity abilities to hold hate like PLD. Its called preference in play style. A "one job to rule them all" rule stinks.

[Starlord]

A "one job to rule them all" rule stinks.

Now I never said that. I just said that Jobs should "master" in a partular Area. That doesn't mean they "can't" tank or Do High Damage. A PLD Roles in the Tanking Dept. But They "can" do DD if they wanted too.. but they won't be "as" effective as they would be at Tanking.

DDing is just " Different Weapon" " Different skills"= Different Job and how they effect the battlefield and depending on the "player" those jobs can be Very high DMGing Jobs or they can be noobish.

Jobs are ment to be tried out then the player decides what he or she wants to play.

[Duelle]

One of the problems (I think may be the #1 problem) voiced by the community regarding classes in the Player Polls was a lack of class/job distinctiveness in Tanaka's FFXIV.

They main concern was that the classes were not named as what we knew them in other Final Fantasy games.

So if lack of distinctiveness was a problem, we should tread carefully when we ask for multiple jobs to be able to fill a single role ... less we backslide.

You're leaning on the wrong end of distinction. Distinction between jobs performing the same role should be along the lines of flavor, resources involved and difference in mechanics. It should not be whether one performs incredibly while the other performs horribly at the task, because then you give way to pigeonholing.

It's the same problem that WHM had with RDM in FFXI. WHM in FFXI was #1 in the healer role. But because RDM was #2 in healing and #2 for Buffing/Debuffing, it caused problems similar to what people in this thread are talking about now.

The problem is really the fact that Final Fantasy doesn't have another canon healer aside from White Mage. It never crossed their minds that not everyone that wants to heal wants to play a White Mage. It is on the developers to crate additional healers to fill that pool, which will benefit the playerbase in the long run.

So is the solution to make WAR a little bit worse at Tanking, or to make PLD so much better at Tanking?

Neither. Make both equally good or remove WAR entirely form the tank pool into the DPS pool.

I believe the best solution is to make PLD #2 at something else other than Tanking or DD. Two of the more obvious choices would be either the healer or buffer/debuffer roles.

You're treading dangerous ground. Multi-roles would be nice---if we did not have the armoury system and instead had standalone jobs with specializations. I would get behind that idea if Yoshida were to ever present it, butas we have the armoury system and the jobs are basically roles for the weapon classes, the jobs' use has to be specific and defined.