Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[stanleyyoung]

But in anycase, I was thinking at work and I think they can leave it like it is IF and ONLY IF the dungeons promote balanced play, meaning you'll always have a paladin and a warrior in the party. I won't mind working together, but I will mind it if you have to pick one or the other because the content will be much harder or impossible by having one of them around. I dispised the need to class stack and am looking forward to class and job changes that make it stupid or unneccisary to do so.

i fine with main and back up tanks or even two types of tanks as long as they are balanced and viable to use. i also hate class stacking and having either classes or jobs obsolete/pointless to use give certain content sucks. But first what matters most is how SE balances the content for low/full man, classes over jobs & vice versa, main & back up tanks etc etc along with having class stacking becoming something of the past. Next it comes down to the design of the class/job and how it goes about doing its role.

[Firon]

All this thread proved that War and pld was fine in all situations some people used pld more some people used war more.

[Reika]

The only thing I see proven is that some people believe both of them can tank everything effectively the way they are.

[Sakasa]

The only thing I see proven is that some people believe both of them can tank everything effectively the way they are.

Well this isnt completely true at the end of 1.0. War has more DD designed combos that can generate hate faster when other abilities are on cool down and on the otherside Paladins shield block is massively more powerful then parry could ever be. Also War is alone on an island for all of his abilites, hp gain, and tp generation. PLD had boons form having a whm which is another reason besides guaranteed block that pld fighting Darnus hard was significantly easier.

I would just like war and gld to be adjusted where it could fit in spots that are vacant. For instance war should be able to be fit into that DD roll and while not be equal give something else to the table that drg or mnk cant. Same for Gladiator instead of pld because pld to me is to far gone to not be tank (I mean design not statistically as you can do dd pld and put up numbers far beyond most suspect).

[Shougun]

The only thing I see proven is that some people believe both of them can tank everything effectively the way they are.

Except they are not lol, there are -clear- winners for different situations.

For same skill and gear, there will be situations I will always pick a WAR over PLD and a PLD over WAR. Never "meh either one I dont care".

[Duelle]

To be honest, I would rather 1 tank with 30 DD's taking down an enormous mob.. Call me a traditionalist but a lot of "dual tank" mechanics end in a main tank holding the boss, and the off-tank sitting in a corner voking adds all night. It never ends in a fun battle mechanic for the off-tank.

Having multiple tanks is much more than that.

Let's take the example of Four Horsemen in Naxxrammas. You assign a tank to the two mobile horsemen (Thane Korth'azz and Baron Rivendare), who place a stacking mark on anyone within 20 yards of them that deals damage. The tanks ideally have to switch between Thane and Baron at around 4 marks, because if the stacks get higher the amount of damage it deals can easily kill them.

You also have stuff like Twin Emperors in AQ40, where the tanks HAVE to keep both mobs apart because if you let them get within...I think it was 30 yards of each other, they heal themselves.

Then you have encounters where you have to keep mobs in place like the opening phase for Thaddius, which requires both tanks ensuring that Feugen and Stalagg stay on their platforms while getting punted from one side of the room to the other.

Then you have stuff like Iron Council between keeping mobs apart and phase 3 Steelbreaker having a move that is a guaranteed tank kill (giving the raid a sort of time limit on killing him).

Sure, you also have stuff like switching the same boss because of a stacking debuff (Gorthok the Impaler) as well as having the second tank help pick up adds (Freya), but a raid encounter with multiple tanks is not always like that.

[Skies]

Except they are not lol, there are -clear- winners for different situations.

For same skill and gear, there will be situations I will always pick a WAR over PLD and a PLD over WAR. Never "meh either one I dont care".

You are not understanding what Reika says. A being better than B does not means that B is bad or not effective.
Both can tank effectively in everything, one will have an easier time, the other a harder time, but effectiveness, both have.

[Shougun]

You are not understanding what Reika says. A being better than B does not means that B is bad or not effective.
Both can tank effectively in everything, one will have an easier time, the other a harder time, but effectiveness, both have.

Effectiveness is rated on the whole scale. If john is way better then bob at X then bob is not an effective choice.


So I disagree.

[Altena]

The problem with your take on rampart is that Warrior can use rampart too. 1 on 1, non-retarded pld vs non-retarded warrior, warrior will win at Aoe agro. You have to look at the skills that one job can use that the other cant, so rampart and sentinel have to come out of the factoring. In 2.0, having full tp at the start would help the warrior more with aoe threat than, because pld doesnt have any aoe based tp skills that it can use before a block (wardrum), while warrior can just go apeshit and win.

After reading this response I now know that you don't understand what makes rampart a strong hate ability.

The strength in Rampart hate is based on hitting your party members with it. Each party member it hits, gives rampart a larger hate boost. If I could be bothered I would hunt around for the BG post about the specifics, however AoE rampart is a GLD trait. WAR's using Rampart are self-buff only, therefore it generates very little hate. (Less then even a provoke or flash).

As for sentinel, the boost in Sent comes from weaponskills, but truthfully the boost isn't very significant and isn't really worth arguing to point. I can't even recall if the hate boost in Sent is also a GLD trait or not, so someone might have to chime in with this one.

A WAR going "apeshit" with weaponskills is not as effective or superior to a PLD who knows how to use their hate tools correctly when up against holding hate off a DRG or MNK (who's TP gain is much higher then a WAR, therefore more weaponskills). The only weaponskill that generates a hate boost for WAR is skull sander, and it truly isn't a very powerful attack. SC & Godsbane is certainly not enough to maintain extremely solid hate against a fully buffed Doomspike, Chaos Thrust or RoT (as an example).

In Warrior's defence, they do have Antagonize which is an effective ability if used correctly, along with Collusion that got quite a bit of a hit in the nerf, but certainly isn't enough to say that they have better AoE hate control over PLD.

But in anycase, I was thinking at work and I think they can leave it like it is IF and ONLY IF the dungeons promote balanced play, meaning you'll always have a paladin and a warrior in the party. I won't mind working together, but I will mind it if you have to pick one or the other because the content will be much harder or impossible by having one of them around. I dispised the need to class stack and am looking forward to class and job changes that make it stupid or unneccisary to do so.

I am all for balanced party setups. I also don't mind WAR still sitting in that slightly "off tank" role to an extent but I personally miss WAR in a heavy DD role. I personally loved the job in certain situations in 1.x, however I am the first to admit that our main PLD tank had a more effective tanking ability in pretty much all content. The only content that he would play WAR was to dual-tank Cutter's 17min (which can also be easily done full timing PLD mind you)

This is probably one of the extremely rare times you will hear me talk about my 1.x end game experience as I hate to share this information/give the impression that I am gloating, however this time I feel it to be necerssary.

Having multiple tanks is much more than that.

Every situation I have experienced that requires 2 tanks has included 1 tank often stuck in a corner holding useless trash mobs while the rest of the party kill the boss..

Mechanics like this aren't fun because it leaves one tank doing not much at all. Taking Princess in CC as an example (an example that I actually know.. I read the first paragraph of your response and gave up trying to understand what you were on about truthfully).
In order to get a 5 chest run, you had to hold Marshall and kill Princess first (as you probably know). A common strategy was to get one tank to hold Marshall to the side while everyone zerged Princess. For plenty of CC runs I have been that off-tank and I have to say it is quite a dull task, and this is only a small example.

Other examples are times where lots of mobs pop, and one tank kites them around the edge of the map (ie Moogle fight) while players pull 1 mob off at a time. Ever tanked that fight? Running in a circle for an eternity holding a bunch of mobs that no one is killing is such a boring mechanic.

[Sakasa]

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