Levelling in ARR

[Zetsubou]

Leveling is a phase that you go through when you first start your job, what we really want is live the experience while we go through that phase. I support both methods, I lived both methods and I really enjoyed them. but I support the Grinding movement, because I mainly want to relive that experience again.


Here are the experience:

Grinding. Lived through my days in XI, and brother... it was a blast. Valkurm Dunes, Qufim Island, Yuhtunga Jungle, Altepa Deserts, Kuftal Tunnel "damn Guivre", Boyahda Tree, Sky... the list go on and on. XI's players and I one of them, wants to relive these days again. Every time you entered a new area you are experiencing something new with all the environment around you, you learn what to avoid, what to kill, where to gather, or where to go. Grinding gave the sense of accomplishment for every DING!, with every new chain kill you do, you acutely stare at your experience bar while it grow, waiting for that DING to equip the new piece of equipment you have been saving in your inventory. Grinding gave the meaning of your max level, because when you look at your max level, you remember what you acutely did to earn that level. Grinding gave us the opportunity to meet people, people you would would really like to join and you look up their names every time you decide to go Grinding again. I can go on and on about what I loved about Grinding.


Quests. Lived that in my Vanila days in WoW, and it was a damn great. Ashenvale, Hillsbrad Foothills, Desolace, Feralas, Stranglethorn Vale "long live hunters' camp", Tanaris, Silithus, and what was introduced in later expansions. Quests created such an interaction we never experience. Finding the other side doing the same quest created this mini game in your head, waiting for the other one to make the first move that would initiate a war that could create a massacre when things get messy. Quests created this schedule of what you wanted to accomplish with the given amount of playing you are willing to give. Quests with friends gave a new feeling for completing tasks, working your best to clear an area, the coop you end up doing was what made Quests.



Both can be viewed as this mindless task:

Grinding looked this mindless-non-changing-same-monster-same-area-killing. But the way I look at it is this task that you keep doing to perfect its execution with the role you are doing. How do you kill each monster with the perfect execution that granted a non-stop experience. The amount of damage and healing that granted the party the conditions that wouldn't let them stop and lose their chains and therefor maximizing their experience gain.


Quest looked this mindless-clicking-kill-gather-copy-past-dialog, But it looked to me as this stress-less tasks that I can work my way as I liked without the fear of someone would screw things up and ruin my time that I have planned. I had the opportunity to see some areas I would never step foot at if it weren't for the quests I'm doing.



Now, from what I have read, Quests seems the "effective" way to level, does that mean its the fastest way?. And it seems Grinding would still be a way to level but you are far better doing quests. Here what I don't like about that statement, it seems to me that they are acknowledging the Grinding but they want people stop doing by trying no to improve the flaws about that system, grinding has it flaws with over-camping, TP-burns where mages and tanks are left out, and more other could point out. It seems they worked around the flaws of Quest and worked that system to be more effective way to go, which seems unfair to me, if you acknowledge a system of leveling you should try to make that system work its most effective way for those who would go through that way.



In the end, people will just do what works for them. I had the chance of having all my jobs maxed for the 1st week when they introduced chain exp in 1.XX "can't remember the exact number", with WAR wolf camp style. But I refused, I want that experience again. I still dream of doing Grinding again even if its not the fastest way to go, I want to look back at my job level at the end of the day and remember what I acutely did to earn that level, even if the other person maxed his job and got that item faster than me, I've spent a year and half of XI game play, and I'm willing to spend the same amount for XIV. In the end, I just want to look back and remember what I acutely did not what quests that I have completed. I'm just 1 voice in this game, and I hope that would help.

[schism]

I read it and totally agree. Warlock is just mad that some ppl still like a system that actually worked quite well.

I guess no one read my post at the top of page 8. Making both parties happy isnt what people here seem to want, some wont be happy unless someone else isnt. Is it too much to have both ways equally valid and maybe even throw in some extra ways too?

[ZakarnRosewood]

Well, here's a solution, that has been mentioned more than once. Have quests to take one job and maybe a bit into the second one, to end game. At that point, the focus of end game becomes party oriented. Now, if you want to level a second class/job you need to do the party oriented tasks, mob grinding, levelinking, dungeon runs, etc. to gain the benefit of extra jobs at cap.

Both parties should be happy this way. I seriously doubt they could make enough quests to get every job to 50. There will still be a need for party mob grinding. This what what i was thinking when i was talking about doing both Stralalala. I have no problem mob grinding, i just dont like it to be the sole means for chr progression. Using this method will give the casuals an oppertunity to take part in the end game stuff while allowing the hardcores to still go for all the extra buffs and benefits of having the time to put into their chrs.

[schism]

I really hope you are right.

Well, here's a solution, that has been mentioned more than once. Have quests to take one job and maybe a bit into the second one, to end game. At that point, the focus of end game becomes party oriented. Now, if you want to level a second class/job you need to do the party oriented tasks, mob grinding, levelinking, dungeon runs, etc. to gain the benefit of extra jobs at cap.

Both parties should be happy this way. I seriously doubt they could make enough quests to get every job to 50. There will still be a need for party mob grinding. This what what i was thinking when i was talking about doing both Stralalala. I have no problem mob grinding, i just dont like it to be the sole means for chr progression. Using this method will give the casuals an oppertunity to take part in the end game stuff while allowing the hardcores to still go for all the extra buffs and benefits of having the time to put into their chrs.

[ZakarnRosewood]

I really hope you are right.

You and me both. With the passion SE has seen from both sides, to do it any other way would not help the success of the game. And they want this game to be successful. All I can do is theorize right now as NO ONE has seen the finished product.

[schism]

Very true, very true.

You and me both. With the passion SE has seen from both sides, to do it any other way would not help the success of the game. And they want this game to be successful. All I can do is theorize right now as NO ONE has seen the finished product.

[stanleyyoung]

I don't want to sound like a broken record repeating the same stuff over and over but their are reason's why we need to have multiple ways of leveling for the short and long term for ARR. But first lets always remember and be honest with ourselves is that "a grind is a grind" no matter how you look at it, point simple. We all can agree on the main reason behind grinding for exp is to get to end game correct? Lets continue now with the reason's to having many ways of leveling up.

Solo quest: this allows new players to get started in the game, getting some gear and gil along with some exposure to the world, learning about mob aggro etc & solo tactics. (pro- new players can get a fair start to the game without heavy resistance to progress forward. Con-continuous use will lead them to little or no party play mechanic ability, & cause the community to be closed off as if it were a single player game)

Leves: this promotes new players to team up in duo's/trio's and work together for a common small goal even though this content doesn't require the teamwork and understanding to party play and mechanics of a group. (healer,tank,support,dd, etc etc) (pro-It allows new players to realize its better & easier to team up and have numbers then rather being/trying to solo. Con- continuous use will cause new players to be in a group for numbers only & not knowing any party mechanics)

FATE: (this is speculation given we don't have much accurate info on this, might be similar to XI campaign) newer players individually play buy themselves but work together with random's to achieve the goal of wining. Which this supports Pick up Group's and in general ppl willingness to help each other without reward or praise. Also teaches ppl to fulfill a role that would normally be in parties and makes ppl learn common sense and the ability to do tasks/actions without being told to do so. (pro- new players are more open to help each other and know the basic design behind class/job and have instinct when to use needed abilities Con- continuous use new players get too comfortable playing by themselves while still helping each other a bit but fail to realize a full team effort is key to wining and party success)

Dungeons: This allows newer players to get the hang of party play with a small group (4ppl) to teach teamwork and the beginners understanding behind party game play mechanics.(healer, tank, DD) (pro- new players learn & understand the mechanics behind small/basic party play Con- continuous use new players only know the basics to play party and not the entire works of it)

Mob grind Parties: This promote's newer players to be in a full party further building teamwork and gaining knowledge behind party game play mechanics. (healer, tank, DD, support, Debuff, Puller, etc) Newer players thus learn each role that's needed in a party and learn tactics & strategy. (pro- players learn the entire works of full party play and all the needed roles Con- new players that don't understand the full party mechanics, or aren't geared for it, or not skilled enough puts too much against them to getting started or continue playing especially early on)

Now we can see from the stand point a new player that all those types of content is needed for leveling not just simply allow the player to get to end game content but more importantly make them prepared and have learned the game play mechanics from beginning to end. For any new player only having one of those as a main source in leveling is terrible, you can see from having of all those a new player can grow into and become experienced person. In the new players point if having mob grind parties as the main source we can see the good and bad, same goes for solo quest, leves, dungeons, FATE, etc etc. SE task is to get many ppl playing this game, they already know how to get FF fan-boys/girls back its the new guys they are trying to get and SE knows that throwing a whole bunch of walls and roadblocks at the start or beginning will only deter new ppl from coming in.

As experienced players it really doesn't matter to us which SE will use since for the most part we are skilled and know the game play so its just a grind no matter how we look at it. The only thing we want is either personal preference in one type of grind or we just want a variety of types of grinds because we all know each one becomes boring to do.

Now the experienced players also know that their are more pro's & con's to each level grind type that i stated but for us experienced players leveling up is just something we have to get through just like the new players but for them its more then getting through it, its about learning in the process along with having some variety since everyone learns at different speeds.

[strallaalaa]

Well, here's a solution, that has been mentioned more than once. Have quests to take one job and maybe a bit into the second one, to end game. At that point, the focus of end game becomes party oriented. Now, if you want to level a second class/job you need to do the party oriented tasks, mob grinding, levelinking, dungeon runs, etc. to gain the benefit of extra jobs at cap.

Both parties should be happy this way. I seriously doubt they could make enough quests to get every job to 50. There will still be a need for party mob grinding. This what what i was thinking when i was talking about doing both Stralalala. I have no problem mob grinding, i just dont like it to be the sole means for chr progression. Using this method will give the casuals an oppertunity to take part in the end game stuff while allowing the hardcores to still go for all the extra buffs and benefits of having the time to put into their chrs.

i agree, this would be cool. i find it retarded if they totally removed it when it's been part of the game. only thing i would like them to remove is powerleveling. specially the way it is now. but having a mix of both is fine.

on a side note, every company trying to copy one type of mmo, at least one of them needs to try and do a ffxi copy paste and see how that goes even if SE refuses to do it. i mean what the worst that happens it goes free to play in a year like every mmo that came out the past 15years?

[Cynthis]

We all can agree on the main reason behind grinding for exp is to get to end game correct?

No, we can't all agree on this. I, like many "casual" players go through the grind because it brings a sense of achievement to get to that next level and getting access to new quests and more lore for instance. I admit that part of it is getting access to end game dungeons and fights but, at least in 1.0, to me that was a very fleeting rewards for the grind, mostly because of the RNG element.

I admit the first time I got through darkhold or defeated Ifrit for example was a lot of fun. I got my achievement and .... oh, that was it. I then had the option of doing the same content over and over and over and over hoping that at some point it would give me some gear but knowing full well it could take a very long time to get the gear I wanted... or I could do something that was certain progress like crafting/gathering and getting money to buy some double melded gear that was about the same.

But in the end I didn't because I realized that what I would have needed the gear for was to do these same, or similar, fights over and over and over again in the hope of getting some different gear that might have been slightly better. Instead I decided to level the next class to get that sense of achievement again. I thought I would be really pleased the day I got all my classes to 50 but instead it was a very bittersweet feeling because I knew there was no more leveling to do.

Now I understand that a lot of people here get their kicks from doing things like beating Van Darnus hard mode faster than the last time and I admire that, I really do. Those kind of things are what I define as "hardcore". But for myself and a lot of other "casual" players, we want content where we feel like we are making progress towards our goals and not content that we feel like we may never beat, or drops that we may never get. We want to do that while also helping others and spending time with our friends.

You may call that a grind, I call it the reason I play the game so please don't think that the leveling process is only a necessary evil to teach players to do end game content. That is not true for everyone and I sincerely hope SE does not treat it that way.

Oh, and before the inevitable comment that I should just go play farmville instead, think about how much money SE would have to invest in building truly superb end game content if the 80 million farmville users played AAR.

[strallaalaa]

i don't think the leveling needs to be a means to endgame either, though i want it to be mostly party play grinds over quests. i took a year to hit my first class max in ffxi. lots to do all the way threw, many barriers and things to distract you from reaching that goal. and that is how it should be. but even more. when i heard ffxiv the new final fantasy mmo was going to come out i was thinking everything ffxi was but way way more. more barriers, more zones that you need to go threw missions and battles in groups to open and unlock. more ships to unlock, more more more. but for this to work you need speed bumbs and they need to be mandatory. you can't have a way to jump to the end. but it would be epic and fun mmo, imo.