Risk, Reward, Probability and Difficulty

[Abriael]

Removing it would make content go by too fast (is what they tell us).

No, it would not. removing the RNG would not mean giving the prize immediately. You can simply give the prize after a statistically average number of attempts, and have a filling bar clearly indicate how many times you need to do the required actions to receive the desired prize.

[Renen]

No, it would not. removing the RNG would not mean giving the prize immediately. You can simply give the prize after a statistically average number of attempts, and have a filling bar clearly indicate how many times you need to do the required actions to receive the desired prize.

Oh right, that. Yeh, I agree that is a good idea. As long as its not like Dynamis (in length) >_<

[HiirNoivl]

No, it would not. removing the RNG would not mean giving the prize immediately. You can simply give the prize after a statistically average number of attempts, and have a filling bar clearly indicate how many times you need to do the required actions to receive the desired prize.

Maybe this would be good for a "statistically average" piece of gear...

[Shougun]

No, it would not. removing the RNG would not mean giving the prize immediately. You can simply give the prize after a statistically average number of attempts, and have a filling bar clearly indicate how many times you need to do the required actions to receive the desired prize.

Them fighting words to some.. :P

I would like to see RNG removed but (like in my first post) I think there is some worry / concern on the psychological feelings associated with chances (gambling) vs "this is how it is".

It would be interesting to see a vote on it, more so to see it make appearance in a AAA [mmorpg] game. Wheels created ruts too deep to get out without help maybe.

Maybe this would be good for a "statistically average" piece of gear...

Kind of what SE is doing for ARR or at least told us they are doing. 3 rare item drop, if you fail a roll you can get a token you can spend on slightly less awesome gear.

[Abriael]

Them fighting words to some.. :P

I would like to see RNG removed but (like in my first post) I think there is some worry / concern on the psychological feelings associated with chances (gambling) vs "this is how it is".

It would be interesting to see a vote on it, more so to see it make appearance in a AAA [mmorpg] game. Wheels created ruts too deep to get out without help maybe.



Kind of what SE is doing for ARR or at least told us they are doing. 3 rare item drop, if you fail a roll you can a token you can spend on slightly less awesome gear.

A degree of randomness could be kept as a bonus in order to keep things exciting, but the difference lays exactly in the concept of bonus.

As we have now, the random reward is the baseline, and the statistical progression (IE: Tokens) is a consolation prize.

It would be better to make it with the statistical progression being the baseline, and the random reward to be a bonus.

It would shift the game from rewarding luck to rewarding effort, with a bit of luck to add some spice to it. And IMHO it would be more fair and enjoyable for everyone involved.

[Shougun]

It would shift the game from rewarding luck to rewarding effort, with a bit of luck to add some spice to it. And IMHO it would be more fair and enjoyable for everyone involved.

That idea makes up one of my longer post/thread on the forums.. lol

There are actually quite a few people who are happy with RNG systems. They drive me bonkers XD

"I know this system is just to make me grind.. just make my attempts useful to that grind dammit.. >.>"

[Abriael]

That idea makes up one of my longer post/thread on the forums.. lol

There are actually quite a few people who are happy with RNG systems. They drive me bonkers XD

"I know this system is just to make me grind.. just make my attempts useful to that grind dammit.. >.>"

People don't really like the RNG, unless they're patologically masochistic. They defend it only because it's implemented by their favorite developer (in this case SE), and everyone knows that their favorite developer can do no wrong.

[Nuinn]

People don't really like the RNG, unless they're patologically masochistic. They defend it only because it's implemented by their favorite developer (in this case SE), and everyone knows that their favorite developer can do no wrong.

.... or have already had good luck on drops (or wasted hours on end) and they don't want the hard work of sitting in front of the PC annulled by giving the others an easier way to get the same items.

"Yes, RNG is fabulous. I'd much rather spend a week doing the same thing over and over again since all other content isn't really that interesting"

Anyhow, someone mentioned 100% drop each time with RNG = /random on who gets the item. It's fine, but what could be the problem is the length of FFXIV dungeons. They can be stormed through, and with a 100% drop rate each time (no abnormal re-entry timers) you could deck out a full pt in a day.

Difficulty/length/timers/exclusivity of the items dropped . . . . not an easy job to put them all into balance.

[Felis]

Anyhow, someone mentioned 100% drop each time with RNG = /random on who gets the item. It's fine, but what could be the problem is the length of FFXIV dungeons. They can be stormed through, and with a 100% drop rate each time (no abnormal re-entry timers) you could deck out a full pt in a day.

Not if you can roll only 3 times the week each dungeon.

[Shougun]

.... or have already had good luck on drops (or wasted hours on end) and they don't want the hard work of sitting in front of the PC annulled by giving the others an easier way to get the same items.

"Yes, RNG is fabulous. I'd much rather spend a week doing the same thing over and over again since all other content isn't really that interesting"

Anyhow, someone mentioned 100% drop each time with RNG = /random on who gets the item. It's fine, but what could be the problem is the length of FFXIV dungeons. They can be stormed through, and with a 100% drop rate each time (no abnormal re-entry timers) you could deck out a full pt in a day.

Difficulty/length/timers/exclusivity of the items dropped . . . . not an easy job to put them all into balance.

For some reason people assume that no RNG means easier.

RNG + data = average amount of attempts.

Make a fixed number of tries at or above that number. You really havent made it any easier, just that every time you put effort in you get a visible reward out (your counter goes up and you always know each attempt was worth it).

Mathematically sound.


Just one more example because i've seen this idea a lot (people think no RNG must mean easier)

SE set a drop rate of 50%, so you can expect that 2 tries is a pretty solid "i'm going to get it" but you may do 3 because that is how %'s are. HOWEVER over the course of many many people doing this event of 50% it will end up being exactly the % (1/2) and only personally appeared to you as a 33.3333% drop rate. So, the reality is the difficulty got fuubared for you but everyone else got it easier (because your that one person the ratio used to offset it from the people who got lucky and did it the first time).

Rather then do all this wild push pull outliers no outliers. Find the rate you want, turn it into a fixed number if you feel you want it to be harder then the fixed number make it 4 tries. So, SE effectively made content harder on average by using a system NOT with RNG.

The only thing RNG does is add mystery and gamble (an addictive mystery- though I think devs have way overrated this aspect). The mystery is particularly useful for things you cant really explain like critical hits. What describes a critical hit, why cant you get non stop critical hits, where did you even hit to get the critical? We dont know, the game isnt '3d' enough to support actual body part targeting and skill involved that you may see in a first person shooter "headshots" or extremely commonly seen in Borderlands I/II.

Thus for criticals in a game environment like FFXIV you have to use RNG since there is no way to properly and accurately rely on skill instead, which should technically be the determining factor of criticals. Of course people who suck at aiming will prefer RNG over skill based since they will hardly ever (or at least think they will hardly ever) get a critical hit (thus they choose the system that offers the higher proc., no other reason unless you are a gambler).


You can use multiple loot systems in tandem to create mystery as well as progressive climbing reward.

The only limit to these systems is SE budget :P