Lost faith in Yoshi-P?

[indira]

the secret to happiness is "don't like it don't do it."

[Levian]

I, for one, am not the kind of person to give too much thought to the "doom and gloom" theories. Yes, 1.0 was a huge flop (despite it not really being all that bad, imo). But the hype for ARR is high. And from what I've seen and heard, the game is going to be phenomenal. Whether it fails or not will be up to the people who play it, and that judgment is reserved for the future. Yes, many of the game's new features are similar to those seen in other games on the surface. But the core of it is still Final Fantasy through and through. So I don't care about similarities found thrugh nitpicking. And the game is an almost total reboot from the ground up from 1.0, so 1.0's failures don't mean much to me either. All that matters to me is if I'm going to enjoy this game. And from what I've seen, I'll have to say I most definately will.

Small correction: It isn't almost a total reboot. It is a total reboot. The game is drastically different from what it was when the servers went down.

Xaimera: Apparently the camera controls have already been talked about, so hopefully those posts get looked at and the issue gets a little dev team attention.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Small correction: It isn't almost a total reboot. It is a total reboot. The game is drastically different from what it was when the servers went down.

Xaimera: Apparently the camera controls have already been talked about, so hopefully those posts get looked at and the issue gets a little dev team attention.

Well, there are some things from 1.0 that will carry on in ARR, so it's not really a 100% total reboot, just mho. But my point is, my judgment of the game is reserved for when I actually play it. Until then, so far I like what I see.

As fr camera issues, if there are problems with the camera, it would be wise of the devs to address that immediately.

[Firon]

so sick of people pretending 1.0 was not spam city with the use of ws.

[Gramul]

so sick of people pretending 1.0 was not spam city with the use of ws.

People are doing that?

[strallaalaa]

this was posted by Darshu in a diff thread but it was so good that i'ma keep spamming it in all the threads relevant every few pages into the thread so people get the point that there ideas of a good mmo are actually destroying what a good mmo is.

Quote Originally Posted by Darshu View Post
Battle is a main concern in a RPG game. I don't think 1% of you here denies it, or dislikes it even. We play RGPs because we enjoy fighting monsters as something other than real people. Every RPG in the past lvled you through battle, and if you didn't enjoy it, then it's hard to believe you're here playing XIV. Some may like battle more than others, who also enjoy a good story, mini games, humor, cutscenes. But you have to enjoy battle to some degree. You also have to enjoy a challenge. Until now, games were meant to challenge us, some more, some less. But challenge already means getting you our of your comfort zone. Questing like that doesn't. It doesn't require you to play your role well in a battle, and it doesn't require you to interact with other players in a battle (note how I said _require_). Requiring it is important to make something engaging. If battles are important, questing is the main mode of lv progression, and questing isn't engaging, the game is pretty much screwed.

Battles in XI were the best a MMO has ever had. You can all disagree or argue with me, but no other game I know ever challenged you in such a way. You had to know your job to really succeed, you had to know everyone else's jobs, be aware of a lot of stuff. It was tense, engaging and rewarding when done right. It was also time consuming. I've reached high lv characters in most other games I played, and I never knew their role to the extent I knew mine in XI (because I didn't need to). Nor have I ever encountered difficulty when lvling in any of those games to the point I had to stop everything else and really focus. Arguing that XI's battle is not harder than others is silly. I don't think it can be denied.

But what does that difficulty accomplish? It bonds you to the players you're partying with. As someone else has mentioned here, XI parties were incredibly social. The game's social aspect was deep because of it. There was much frustration in the dunes, qufim, citadel. It was also memorable when you succeeded. I'm sure those who've played through that have very vivid, fond memories of great parties, more than they have of any other game. Now, how many memories can you really get out of lvling from 1 to 50 through a questing system such as this? Remember, this is not something you can just ignore, it's the main way of lv progression.

Did you not enjoy fighting in past games? Is fighting not a main aspect of a MMORPG? Then how can you prefer quest grinding, where you put little effort into your job and battles are usually fast and easy, over party based monster grinding, where you will put all of your skills to use, feel useful, have your new equipment put to the test, tighten bonds with party mates? This isn't supposed to be quest grinding over RO style of monster grinding, even though I personally would prefer that even over quest grinding, mainly because it was very challenging if you wanted a good exp rate. I think my main point and concern is quest grinding is rarely ever challenging. And if this is the main way through which we will evolve, then it can't be dismissed with arguments such as "Not every content has to be challenging". SURE! Make sidequests relaxing, interesting, about exploration, with minigames, or easy battles with a nice story (just the way it was in 1.0). Because those we CAN avoid and won't be doing them much if we don't want to. Make levequests easy and fast to get through, just the way it was in 1.0. But not the main tool of lvling up.

[Levian]

the secret to happiness is "don't like it don't do it."

Saying things like "Don't like it? Don't do it!" is like saying, "Money won't buy you happiness," or "Alcohol won't solve your problems." Might hold some small measure of truth, but at the end of the day somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Mercedes Benz than on a bicycle. Alcohol does not solve any problem, but then neither does milk.

Likewise one can't always just not do things. I don't like work, nasty four-letter-word that it is. But I would like being homeless and destitute a lot less. I hated doing dailies in WoW, but I hated not having any gold a lot more. I also hated quest grinding, but putting in twice the effort for half the experience mob grinding wasn't exactly a viable alternative.

[Bartleby]

Battle is a main concern in a RPG game. I don't think 1% of you here denies it, or dislikes it even. We play RGPs because we enjoy fighting monsters as something other than real people. Every RPG in the past lvled you through battle, and if you didn't enjoy it, then it's hard to believe you're here playing XIV. Some may like battle more than others, who also enjoy a good story, mini games, humor, cutscenes. But you have to enjoy battle to some degree. You also have to enjoy a challenge. Until now, games were meant to challenge us, some more, some less. But challenge already means getting you our of your comfort zone. Questing like that doesn't. It doesn't require you to play your role well in a battle, and it doesn't require you to interact with other players in a battle (note how I said _require_). Requiring it is important to make something engaging. If battles are important, questing is the main mode of lv progression, and questing isn't engaging, the game is pretty much screwed.

Sure, I'd agree that battles are important in most RPGs and play a big role in the game. But What makes you think that soloing mobs is any less engaging or demanding than autoattacking to 100 TP and pressing a WS macro and rinse-repeating for 75 levels?

Battles in XI were the best a MMO has ever had. You can all disagree or argue with me, but no other game I know ever challenged you in such a way. You had to know your job to really succeed, you had to know everyone else's jobs, be aware of a lot of stuff. It was tense, engaging and rewarding when done right. It was also time consuming. I've reached high lv characters in most other games I played, and I never knew their role to the extent I knew mine in XI (because I didn't need to). Nor have I ever encountered difficulty when lvling in any of those games to the point I had to stop everything else and really focus. Arguing that XI's battle is not harder than others is silly. I don't think it can be denied.

This is where I really start to disagree. As a five year FFXI player, battles were not that fun, especially when you were leveling up. Most battles consisted of a monotonous killing of the very same mob for 2 to even 4 hours, or even more, before you got a level up. Whether it was grinding crabs, lizards, crawelrs, colibri, or whatever else, combat in XI was about as mindless as it gets and was painfully slow. There was no difficulty to it. You might be able to argue that there was difficulty in ENDGAME fights, but that doesn't really apply to the level grind. Most jobs in XI weren't that hard to figure out, and 90% of the playerbase throughout the game and to this day still don't play their jobs correctly, especially during the level grind. The DD jobs auto attack until they TP and WS, the mages cure/throw on an enfeeble or two when the mob comes in, the tank holds hate, etc.; nothing too complicated.

But what does that difficulty accomplish? It bonds you to the players you're partying with. As someone else has mentioned here, XI parties were incredibly social. The game's social aspect was deep because of it. There was much frustration in the dunes, qufim, citadel. It was also memorable when you succeeded. I'm sure those who've played through that have very vivid, fond memories of great parties, more than they have of any other game. Now, how many memories can you really get out of lvling from 1 to 50 through a questing system such as this? Remember, this is not something you can just ignore, it's the main way of lv progression.

Most of XI's parties were not social at all, I think that's mostly just nostalgia. Yes, there were a few, maybe 10% of the parties, but most of them consisted of the robotic repetition of [pull mob in --> whack to death --> pull mob in --> whack to death] ad infinitum. The extent of talking was usually just a prerecorded "Hello!" on joining and "Congratulations!" when someone leveled. In fact, I'd wager that most of the talking in parties was with your LS rather than your party mates. Now, I'm not saying a social party never came along, but it sure wasn't as often as people like to pretend. For every 1 party you remember as social, there were probably another 9 where hardly anyone said a word to each other. Regardless, I'm quite sure it has already been confirmed that you will not only be able to quest all of your jobs to 50, but that grind parties will still have a leg-up on questing. Not to mention, I doubt every quest from 1-50 will be a "Go solo 3 rabbits" kind of thing, I'm sure some will require a team.

Did you not enjoy fighting in past games? Is fighting not a main aspect of a MMORPG? Then how can you prefer quest grinding, where you put little effort into your job and battles are usually fast and easy, over party based monster grinding, where you will put all of your skills to use, feel useful, have your new equipment put to the test, tighten bonds with party mates? This isn't supposed to be quest grinding over RO style of monster grinding, even though I personally would prefer that even over quest grinding, mainly because it was very challenging if you wanted a good exp rate. I think my main point and concern is quest grinding is rarely ever challenging. And if this is the main way through which we will evolve, then it can't be dismissed with arguments such as "Not every content has to be challenging". SURE! Make sidequests relaxing, interesting, about exploration, with minigames, or easy battles with a nice story (just the way it was in 1.0). Because those we CAN avoid and won't be doing them much if we don't want to. Make levequests easy and fast to get through, just the way it was in 1.0. But not the main tool of lvling up.

Quest grinding isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and mob grinding isn't as great as you make it out to be either.

So in conclusion, my argument is thus: leveling by grinding mobs was in fact not very challenging at all, and that quest based leveling shouldn't be thrown away just to be replaced by mob grinding. I'm not saying mob grinding doesn't have its place, or its benefits, but its not the golden answer you make it out to be.

[indira]

Saying things like "Don't like it? Don't do it!" is like saying, "Money won't buy you happiness," or "Alcohol won't solve your problems." Might hold some small measure of truth, but at the end of the day somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Mercedes Benz than on a bicycle. Alcohol does not solve any problem, but then neither does milk.

Likewise one can't always just not do things. I don't like work, nasty four-letter-word that it is. But I would like being homeless and destitute a lot less. I hated doing dailies in WoW, but I hated not having any gold a lot more. I also hated quest grinding, but putting in twice the effort for half the experience mob grinding wasn't exactly a viable alternative.

not sure how you got all that off my one liner, but i was talking about the game then you come with all that mumbo jumbo. and yeah, if you hate the the game dont play it it is as simple as that, you lived up to this point before ffxiv you can live without it.
problem with people today they look tooooooo deep into things.

[Maxthunder]

You want an FFXI clone, I get that. ARR wants to appeal to a broader market than the niche 400 people who still play FFXI. I am a die hard FF fan and have played every one of them (including most of the spinoffs) and I tried to like FFXI, I really did, but in the end I was literally falling asleep at the keyboard waiting for ANYTHING to happen.

We are in the age of FPS and instant gratification, if you want to gimp your playstyle in the name of what you consider difficult, turn off names, hide your HUD, hide your minimap, and dont read dialogue when taking a quest. Then you will have your perfect game. Meanwhile, the rest of us will enjoy the game for what it is, not what you think it should be. There are reasons people make addons, to give these games the things they feel are missing. Just like Diablo 3 took ownership of the gill sellers by putting in their own real money auction house, ARR wants to have the quest helper and threat meters built right in.

A broader market thats one sided. Yoshi wouldnt know balance if it hit him smack in the face. You have a few different types of players and to cater to 1 group more than balanceing the game for all types of players is an insult. At what point dose the hand holding stop level 5,10 or never? At what point and how much help dose a person need?