Lost faith in Yoshi-P?

[Hyrist]

I'm very concerned with the fact that ARR at this point looks like most other MMOs on the market. As others have said over and over, if we wanted to play those games, we'd be playing them.

I have to ask, and this is not a general question but your concerns has raised this issue.

Given that this is an MMO genre, what do you want out of it, for it to be such a departure from other MMOs?

I'd hate to say it, but those who are looking for similarities, or fear similarities, will find them regardless. But those who are looking for the differences, will also do succeed. The response to the Quest footage has been rather indicative of this fact.

And while the game is designed to have wide appeal, we have to keep in mind that some of what is being displayed is not the sum of the game. F.A.T.E., Primal hunts/battles, the Storyline itself. The Class/Job system, all of these already detract away from common MMOs in their own way.

I do share some concern in the way SE's been displaying the fundamentals of the game to us, and how they work. They are not what is going to attract a new players who have not already experienced the highlights of 1.xx. In my opinion, high level play with the classes, Primal Fights, Crystal Tower, Bahatmut's Labyrinth, etc. should be at the forefront of their advertising, even in Alpha. These gorgeous vistas are amazing, and the questing is smooth, but elements that strike us as familiar to the Final Fantasy franchise is what's going to excite us.

Low level play is going to seem fairly mundane and boring in comparison to all of this, although I am quite sure they were excited to display how smooth and controlled the quest and battle system looks to a brand new player. I still feel they need to do more along the lines of the Primal Fight trailers we had before.

But as far as 'If we wanted to play x game, we would play it." Please rest assured, this game is different. Perhaps not wildly so, but it may not need to be. Setting is a gigantic part of MMOs. It wasn't WoW's or any other game's fetch quest system that pushed me away from them, ultimately. These weren't necessarily bad, though we tend to like to blame them a lot.

What I feel is lacking in those other MMOS is the hook. That 'one thing' that keeps you invested in the game. Final Fantasys, especially the ones Yoshida has been aspiring too, have not lacked this quality to make you want to be a part of that world.

So while, yes, this trailer did seem a bit bland. It did not shake my faith or raised concerns about the quality of the game.

It just makes me criticize their marketing yet again.

[Gramul]

What I feel is lacking in those other MMOS is the hook. That 'one thing' that keeps you invested in the game. Final Fantasy's, especially the ones Yoshida has been aspiring too, have not lacked this quality to make you want to be a part of that world.

(I felt this was the core point so forgive me if I ignored something important)

What concrete concept would you consider that "one thing" to be? SWtOR and LotRO had a massive backlog of lore to build around but they fell into obscurity not to long after release and inevitably ran to F2P as a means of continuation. Conan had lore and nudity. Guild Wars 2 has beautiful visuals and a dynamic quest system but that's only doing fair. Tera too has attractive visuals and action based gameplay, but it's not very popular. DCU has all of DC comics behind it but people left that game bored.

So what does XIV ARR offer? The "one thing" that will prevent mediocrity? The fact that it was once so much worse isn't going to keep people invested. And while the environments, visuals, and story will no doubt be fantastic, it probably won't keep people around for too long.

Don't take this personally, I just think it's something we have to think about before celebrating.

[Hyrist]

(I felt this was the core point so forgive me if I ignored something important)

What concrete concept would you consider that "one thing" to be? SWtOR and LotRO had a massive backlog of lore to build around but they fell into obscurity not to long after release and inevitably ran to F2P as a means of continuation. Conan had lore and nudity. Guild Wars 2 has beautiful visuals and a dynamic quest system but that's only doing fair. Tera too has attractive visuals and action based gameplay, but it's not very popular. DCU has all of DC comics behind it but people left that game bored.

So what does XIV ARR offer? The "one thing" that will prevent mediocrity? The fact that it was once so much worse isn't going to keep people invested. And while the environments, visuals, and story will no doubt be fantastic, it probably won't keep people around for too long.

Don't take this personally, I just think it's something we have to think about before celebrating.

Good question and I never shy away from that point.

The "One thing" often differs from game to game, but I'll point it out for the ones that were lacking.


LotOR did not feel very apt to its environment. They went through great lengths to attempt to create a world of Lord of the Rings and marry it with an MMO concept, even to draft the evasion/stamina based mechanics they toted at the beginning. While it keeps a fair share of players involved (In this case FTP was a smart business change for them, not a failing.) It simply did not hold the feeling of deep connection that the books and movies have captured.

SWtOR had an entirely different problem. The story content was rich and involving, and their moment to moment quest system was well done in this regard. But there was nothing keeping the player there after their initial story was done. They had over-invested in the personal story and not enough in providing lasting life to the environment - particularly in the endgame situation.

But let's get into the Questing system. The 'big let down' that is raising so much concern. All MMOs have this bread and butter questing system. Guild Wars 2 attempted to bypass it, but it still exists in the heart system. They tried to replace it by creating an active time quest. Events happen and you follow them along to gain exp and currency, etc.

The problem is, this takes away from the personal journey of it. Some quest strike out more than others, though live quests will always make you feel as part of the crowd. And the Personal Story arc, unfortunately, isn't as compelling, though it is quite entertaining (Especially if you follow the Order of Whispers path).

Square Enix is taking the traditional system of questing in MMOs, adding their own personal touch to them (FFXI style questing modernized with long standing issues addressed). On top of having the occasional FATE occurring, ala Guild Wars 2's event system, to keep things varied.

Granted, I agree. This is far too early to celebrate what has not yet been shown, but so to, is it far too early to throw in the towel. The core endgame systems, which are the true meet and potatoes of any MMO, has not been shown, and I'm critical of SE for not diving right into showing them off.


"The Hook" is elusive because it's not the same for each game. The people who still play LoTR or SWtOR, will argue with you that the game still has their hooks, and that you should give it another chance for it to sink into you.

However, a lot of people here discussing these things, even those wavering, are already hooked. They're just not in the depth of it to experience those addictive qualities.

Just as saying "It's a Final Fantasy" might ring hollow to you, until you watched the End of an Era trailer, or did a Primal Battle and went "Oh... yeah, that's Final Fantasy."


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Slowly but surely I'm seeing the painting Yoshida is trying to make here. The picture of a day in the life of A Realm Reborn. If you're interested I might share it with you.

[Gramul]

Good question and I never shy away from that point.

The "One thing" often differs from game to game, but I'll point it out for the ones that were lacking.


LotOR did not feel very apt to its environment. They went through great lengths to attempt to create a world of Lord of the Rings and marry it with an MMO concept, even to draft the evasion/stamina based mechanics they toted at the beginning. While it keeps a fair share of players involved (In this case FTP was a smart business change for them, not a failing.) It simply did not hold the feeling of deep connection that the books and movies have captured.

SWtOR had an entirely different problem. The story content was rich and involving, and their moment to moment quest system was well done in this regard. But there was nothing keeping the player there after their initial story was done. They had over-invested in the personal story and not enough in providing lasting life to the environment - particularly in the endgame situation.

But let's get into the Questing system. The 'big let down' that is raising so much concern. All MMOs have this bread and butter questing system. Guild Wars 2 attempted to bypass it, but it still exists in the heart system. They tried to replace it by creating an active time quest. Events happen and you follow them along to gain exp and currency, etc.

The problem is, this takes away from the personal journey of it. Some quest strike out more than others, though live quests will always make you feel as part of the crowd. And the Personal Story arc, unfortunately, isn't as compelling, though it is quite entertaining (Especially if you follow the Order of Whispers path).

Square Enix is taking the traditional system of questing in MMOs, adding their own personal touch to them (FFXI style questing modernized with long standing issues addressed). On top of having the occasional FATE occurring, ala Guild Wars 2's event system, to keep things varied.

Granted, I agree. This is far too early to celebrate what has not yet been shown, but so to, is it far too early to throw in the towel. The core endgame systems, which are the true meet and potatoes of any MMO, has not been shown, and I'm critical of SE for not diving right into showing them off.


"The Hook" is elusive because it's not the same for each game. The people who still play LoTR or SWtOR, will argue with you that the game still has their hooks, and that you should give it another chance for it to sink into you.

However, a lot of people here discussing these things, even those wavering, are already hooked. They're just not in the depth of it to experience those addictive qualities.

Just as saying "It's a Final Fantasy" might ring hollow to you, until you watched the End of an Era trailer, or did a Primal Battle and went "Oh... yeah, that's Final Fantasy."


---------------------------------------------

Slowly but surely I'm seeing the painting Yoshida is trying to make here. The picture of a day in the life of A Realm Reborn. If you're interested I might share it with you.

The concept of Final Fantasy is a very open ended subject. While Final Fantasy may have connecting tropes, characters and themes, they are mostly very different games with varying degrees of popularity and fanbases. "It's Final Fantasy" is a wild card as far as hooks go.

I guess the best thing we can do right now is wait till more is revealed and voice our concerns when we have them.

And I would love to hear your ideas on Yoshi's overall concept.

[Gentaro]

Slowly but surely I'm seeing the painting Yoshida is trying to make here. The picture of a day in the life of A Realm Reborn. If you're interested I might share it with you.

Tell us :3

[ZakarnRosewood]

Tell us :3

I think she was speaking as Yoshida when she said "If you're interested I might share it with you." Could be wrong but that's how I read it.

[Hyrist]

I think she was speaking as Yoshida when she said "If you're interested I might share it with you." Could be wrong but that's how I read it.

Nah, I meant share it with the community, but it's becoming quite long... I might just post it in a new thread at this point.

[Davorok]

... And while the environments, visuals, and story will no doubt be fantastic, it probably won't keep people around for too long.

I may be in the minority of RPG-MMO players (although I think I am not) and I may not be SE's target audience for FFXIV (although I think I am), but what you just described is exactly what keeps me interested in an MMO (or any game for that matter).

I am one of those "It's the journey, not the destination" type of players. Sure I want solid Battle Mechanics and Epic Gears and that feeling you get when you finally get that piece of armor and/or weapon you've been drooling over for months, but every decent game has those things.

The reason why WoW, Rift, SWToR, Guild Wars, etc never got me "hooked" was because I did not care for (or about) the overall "Worlds" in which they took place.

FFXI was the exception. I cared about that world and to some extent many of the NPC's that inhabited it.

That is what SE is generally pretty good at...creating a "world" that has heart, drama, sadness and elation. I just hope they hired some really good scriptwriters for the Main Scenario and sidequests. I wouldn't mind if they reworked the Class/Job quests too.

Admittedly, the 2 quests we saw in the recent video were nothing to garner awards for and I expect some trash quests but I also expect some very involved quests as well.

I remain hopeful that they won't disappoint. They have a pretty good track record (except for XIV 1.0)

[Virtuso]

I may be in the minority of RPG-MMO players (although I think I am not) and I may not be SE's target audience for FFXIV (although I think I am), but what you just described is exactly what keeps me interested in an MMO (or any game for that matter).

I am one of those "It's the journey, not the destination" type of players. Sure I want solid Battle Mechanics and Epic Gears and that feeling you get when you finally get that piece of armor and/or weapon you've been drooling over for months, but every decent game has those things.

The reason why WoW, Rift, SWToR, Guild Wars, etc never got me "hooked" was because I did not care for (or about) the overall "Worlds" in which they took place.

FFXI was the exception. I cared about that world and to some extent many of the NPC's that inhabited it.

That is what SE is generally pretty good at...creating a "world" that has heart, drama, sadness and elation. I just hope they hired some really good scriptwriters for the Main Scenario and sidequests. I wouldn't mind if they reworked the Class/Job quests too.

Admittedly, the 2 quests we saw in the recent video were nothing to garner awards for and I expect some trash quests but I also expect some very involved quests as well.

I remain hopeful that they won't disappoint. They have a pretty good track record (except for XIV 1.0)

I'm the same way. While I tried other MMO's like SWTOR and GW2 and enjoyed then for a while, I just didn't care enough to stick around. Then out of sheer boredom I decided to give XIV an other shot in it's last few months. Even though I knew XIV version 1.xx was still a vastly inferior product by almost every measurement, something about the story, the events of the Seventh Umbra era and the world kept me paying and playing month after month. It got me more excited for what the future holds then any of SWTOR plans for it's future.

Similar to old school "Disney Magic" of the past the Final Fantasy series had it's own special "magic" to it that I couldn't find in other RPG's. In recent years that magic has faded with more and more fans turning their backs to the series with each new release.

I'm glad to see Yoshi-P acknowledged that fact. He's not just out to make a quality MMO, he's out to bring that "Final Fantasy Magic" back to the series. I could see bright glimmers of it in the Seventh Umbra story line and can't wait to see what he puts together with ARR.