Why Casual Friendly Would Stop ARR From Dying

[Ralos]

I merely provided a link to the quotes in which I used to further my point that it is the general consensus of opinion on the matter and when defining definitions, that is what makes a definition a fact.

If you wish to argue that opinion can not be taken as fact, that is a whole different subject unfitting of the topic at hand.

Back to the subject at hand, hardcore gamers take games seriously, casual gamers do not. There is some grey area as I mentioned but this is the general jest of what it takes to be considered hardcore or casual and the person in that video did not seem to grasp that.

I'm not arguing the generalization of weather or not opinion can be taken as fact. I'm saying more specifically that your opinion on casual vs. hardcore (the matter at hand) isn't fact and so you can't call someone else wrong because they interpret the meaning differently. I'm not using the word definition, because there is none.
On that note, I like to think I'm not actually arguing with you, just discussing, but that's just my opinion (see what I did there?)
I have no wish to argue about anything ever, so I meant no offense in my original post when I said you sounded condescending.

My own point of view differs from yours on what casual and hardcore is, that's why I took up the matter of opinion vs. fact. I play games a lot, I like to be great at them, and I will put in the work, practice, and research that a "hard core" gamer would, so I consider myself a "hardcore gamer" But I don't think I take games "seriously". I don't make a fuss when things don't go right, or when I don't get into alpha, or when others aren't treating the process as "serious business" I put in the hard work because it's fun for me, not because I find gaming to be a serious matter.

P.S. it greatly amuses me that we're at opposite ends in this thread yet happily agreeing about Fernehalwes in another thread. Gotta love the online community.

[strallaalaa]

in reality the only people left at 1.XX were people who didn't mind not enough content or so casual they had a lot to do still in the game. but unless they want more then this many people staying in the game for more then the free month they give us for coming back then they need to cater to way more then the casuals.

[Almalexia]

In short what I'm suggesting is that instead of super hard raid and 1000s of deaths, you have a -FUN- game, that rewards all players just for playing and sticking with the game.

Since when are difficulty and fun mutually exclusive?

Oh right. Since casuals.

There is a reason why you are failing a "super hard raid" thousands of times. The worst thing you can do in a video game is walk away from failure learning absolutely nothing. The problem with casuals is they're too busy with their 12 kids, their 300k/yr. jobs, their many mistresses, their private jets and going to da club to let a video game tell them their first attempt at a dungeon wasn't the best. Or something. I don't know what casuals do.

[AmyNeudaiz]

I'm not arguing the generalization of weather or not opinion can be taken as fact. I'm saying more specifically that your opinion on casual vs. hardcore (the matter at hand) isn't fact and so you can't call someone else wrong because they interpret the meaning differently. I'm not using the word definition, because there is none.
On that note, I like to think I'm not actually arguing with you, just discussing, but that's just my opinion (see what I did there?)
I have no wish to argue about anything ever, so I meant no offense in my original post when I said you sounded condescending.

My own point of view differs from yours on what casual and hardcore is, that's why I took up the matter of opinion vs. fact. I play games a lot, I like to be great at them, and I will put in the work, practice, and research that a "hard core" gamer would, so I consider myself a "hardcore gamer" But I don't think I take games "seriously". I don't make a fuss when things don't go right, or when I don't get into alpha, or when others aren't treating the process as "serious business" I put in the hard work because it's fun for me, not because I find gaming to be a serious matter.

P.S. it greatly amuses me that we're at opposite ends in this thread yet happily agreeing about Fernehalwes in another thread. Gotta love the online community.

Well I guess that was the fault of my wording then, I do not mean that you have to make a fuss or get angry about alpha to be serious about a game. I simply mean one has to dedicate to gaming.

Although I will agree to disagree on the exact definition, the guys was still full of shit.

P.S. It's just proper forum manners not to bring feelings from one thread into another.

[Ralos]

Well I guess that was the fault of my wording then, I do not mean that you have to make a fuss or get angry about alpha to be serious about a game. I simply mean one has to dedicate to gaming.

Although I will agree to disagree on the exact definition, the guys was still full of shit.

P.S. It's just proper forum manners not to bring feelings from one thread into another.

+1d for good resolutions =)

[NoctisXZ]

OP you have guts I'll tell ya that... some people on the FFXIV and FFXI forums are among the most blind and arrogant in every community I have seen in an MMO, they believe that only the "elite" should be rewarded but those just playing the game for fun should just be ignored.

Most of the replies have proved that already and I don't even have to explain further. If you're thinking that only the hardcore should be rewarded your opinion should be ignored. This is a struggling game, one which the producer aims to outdo FFVII in individual sales(over 10 million), something FFXI never even came close to reaching, but World of Warcraft surpassed, and it isn't as old as FFXI.

The OP is correct. This game needs CASUAL and SOLO content for everyone to be able to enjoy it. When you only cater to the hardcore gamers you fail. That's a 100% fact boys and girls. I know the hardcore players and fanboys won't agree but neither groups believe in facts. You know like someone hits you with a rock but say its a crumpled piece of paper... its still a rock. Fact is Fact.

First I'll say this: when making an MMORPG to compete in a saturated market, who do you try to take points from? Everquest? FFXI? No, you take it from the most profitable and populated MMO on the market. World of Warcraft.

You don't make an outright clone, which Yoshi-P does seem to be avoiding. But you look at what made it largely successful. In WoW's case it DOES cater to the hardcore gamers in terms of PvP and the hardest tier of endgame content which casual players can not do so the "elite" can still feel better about themselves. While at the same time when they release new endgame content for the hardcore players to tackle the older endgame content gets nerfed a little bit so the casual players can try. That way everyone gets new stuff to do.


The major points about what I just said:
- The "hardcore" players still get the best
- The casual players get content and don't feel ignored by the developers which is what kills most MMOs btw.

Its a system that has worked for 8 years on an MMO with a population 3-4 times the size of FFXI when FFXI was at its peak, you know when these "hardcore" players say it was good.

In order for this game to succeed it doesn't want to rely on the Elite or hardcore or whatever you want to call yourselves, it will rely on the casual players weather you admit it or not. Casual players make these games grow and when the population is large enough, hardcore gamers like to come in to see what the fuss is about. If its easier to get into its easier for them to stay.

FFXIV 1.0 was by no means hard. So if you think you're "elite" you may want to think twice. I know some casual players that cleared everything you guys did. it just took much longer to do so since they don't have 5 hours a day to play.

Casual players are the MAIN selling point behind MMOs today, Many casual players turn into dedicated players in time, Just because they only have 1-2 hours to play doesn't mean they are worse than you. it just means they have less time.

I know a loooot of casual players that could stomp the crap out of hardcore players, but their gear wouldn't be up to par because of how the FF community treats drops. "You're always here so you get the item" seems fair, but it should be more of a "you're always here when you're online" is more fair and friendly to those of us that either work odd shifts, have children to take care of have to go out with bf/gf, deal with personal rl business... the list goes on.

Casual players should have to do something for their items, but at the same time they should be rewarded just as much as the hardcore players. Maybe not the best items and if so it would take about 20 times longer then the hardcore player(which IS fair regardless of how you see it)

Casual players will help this game grow, not the elite endgame groups.

First of all... time to do a little damage control.. because honestly, there appears to be a lot of biased opinion being thrown about on BOTH sides.

I think we can ALL agree that there needs to be content for BOTH sets of players. Content for those who only have an hour or two to play everyday and content for those who can play for longer than that, no?

The fundamental problem that I have with the way things are now with most games boils down to one simple thing, demand. Regardless of if you want to acknowledge it or not the problems that most "casuals" point out about "hardcore content" is that they don't have the time to complete it.. when in actuality it has absolutely nothing to do with it. How could I possibly know this?.. well I'll tell you right now! Take a look at almost every "casual" argument there is when it comes to this type of thing.. frequently you will see certain buzz words, like gear or tokens.

Now I find that interesting.. because more often than not the whole point that they're trying to make is that they don't have the time to acquire said gear. It has absolutely nothing to do with actually being able to play/enjoy the content but with the fact that they can't do it as often as they'd like and acquire the things that they want.

That to me is a problem and why I tend to dismiss a great deal of "casual" complaints. Because truthfully all that I see time and time again is self-entitled behavior.

There doesn't need to be and shouldn't be an alternative way to acquire the best gear that a certain type of event has to offer unless said event requires a ridiculous amount of time to complete each night, say.. 5 hours. More often than not I find that tokens ruin the long time enjoyment that most "moderate" and "hardcore" players have with a game.

Take Guild Wars 2 for example.. from personal experience I can honestly say that not one dungeon, on any path, takes more then 2 hours at the MOST if you exclude a first time run for the entire group.. except for maybe the final dungeon. That is EXTREMELY casual friendly considering the ease at which it is to find a group, travel to said dungeon location, and actually complete the run. Not to mention that when you actually examine the various gear sets from each dungeon they are all almost virtually identical in terms of usefulness and power..

So why do tokens even exist in that game? -Cough- .. self-entitlement... and lets not even get into the randomness of drops. I see that brought up as the excuse and it's absolutely bunk.. it's the reflective armor that the "casual" complainers use to mask the real issue they have with the game.. and that my friend is the simple fact that they can't acquire the things they want when they want it.

Now to address your post Xikeroth.. oh where to begin...

Most of us "moderate" and "hardcore" players who voice our opposition aren't blind and/or arrogant, you saying that is honestly arrogant.. we can simply see the effects that these types of things have on a game. And yes.. it also is about acquisition.

Why should the best gear a game have to offer have an alternative path of acquisition? One "casual", for those who don't have the time to acquire it, and one for the more "moderate" and "hardcore" players who actually do have the time and put in the EFFORT.

Lets compare the relic systems from FFXI to FFXIV.. acquiring a relic in FFXI was not only time consuming but it also required an insane amount of effort and coordination. They were the best weapons the game had to offer and only a handful of players had them.. I wasn't one of those players. But guess what.. I could still play the game and do everything I wanted to do without them. I didn't complain that they were out of reach to someone like me.. instead I put away what I could when I could knowing that one day I'd have one, that's it.

FFXIVs relic system I was never interested in and honestly didn't look into it much. But in terms of time and effort needed to acquire, arguably what should be the best weapons in the game, it was extremely "casual" friendly.

It's as I said before.. It seemed that when World of Warcraft introduced a whole new generation of players to the genre all of that logic and sportsmanship, if you will, went out the door.

If It really was just about fun Xikeroth the "casual" audience wouldn't even complain about not being able to have certain pieces of gear.. after all, they're just playing for fun.. right? But as I said in a previous post the new idea of fun for most is.. if I get something I had fun.. but if I didn't I had a piss poor time. So perhaps you are right!

When you ONLY cater to the "casual" audience your game fails.. or to be more precise, goes free to play. That's a 100% fact boys and girls! -Rolls eyes-

Facts are facts!

I honestly hate these arguments because it really isn't about the content itself or time. No one on the "casual" side seems to want to admit that.. it's all about acquisition. It's all about the all mighty WANT. It's all about gear..

Lets try something.. say I launch a new game to the masses. Lets call it Logic Master 3000!.. when the game launches there are 2 million people playing it. But after the first month or two 750,000 of those players leave the game.. what would you call the people left in the game? You would consider them the avid players wouldn't you? "Hardcore" in the sense that they are still playing a game that a lot of people consider rubbish, opinions are opinions.

The ones who cancel their subscriptions on and off over the years you'd consider "casual".. wouldn't you? So tell me my friend.. who would you want to target IF you wanted your game to have a healthy life cycle? The "casual" audience.. who might give you a huge subscription boom in the beginning of the games life.. or would you want the more "moderate" or "hardcore" audience.. who might not give you a huge subscription number, but will stay with the game for many years to come.

Just look at games like Eve and FFXI, in the old days at least. These types of games.. games that aren't considered casual friendly are the ones that last the longest and more often than not have the BEST communities. Now look at every other game.. how long have these more solo oriented/casual friendly games lasted on a subscription model?

They drift into obscurity within a matter of months when the next new game comes out that they will jump ship to.. it's a vicious cycle, and it's why none of these newer games last that long. They're targeting the wrong people IF they want there game to have a HEALTHY LIFE CYCLE.

The "casual" audience does make the game grow in the short term I will give you that. But in the long term they mean absolutely nothing because they're already gone.. and what does that leave you with?.. it leaves you with a game targeting an audience that isn't even there anymore. And what does that do? It alienates the player base that would actually stay with the game for many years to come. And what does that do? It makes the game shut down.. it's rather simple!

You prove my whole argument in your own post. Just look at it.. all you're talking about primarily is gear.

Someone in this thread had an excellent post regarding the OP. The OP went to school and earned many degrees, has a job, and an active social life.. no doubt that required a great deal of time and devotion. How do you think he'd feel.. how do you think anyone would feel if someone did the exact same thing in a matter of days because things were catered to them. It's not fair now is it?.. exactly..

I'm absolutely sick of the self-entitlement. It's destroying the genre as a whole. I've played many MMOs since FFXI and in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM I could skate through it with minimal interaction with other players, because talking to other people requires to much precious "casual" time, and acquire the best gear in a matter of days.. if not a day.

I'm sorry if you don't have the time to acquire the best gear in a game on the terms that you want. That's to bad for you.. you don't NEED the gear to be able to play and enjoy the game anyway.. stop offering alternative ways to acquire things because certain people don't like the way it has to be done or they don't have the time. If they can't do it.. they can't do it..

There should be content for everyone, yes. In terms of TIME there should be a wide variety of endgame events ranging from 30 minutes to upwards of 3+ hours as I said.. and you know what. The one that requires more time/coordination should offer the BEST gear.

A "casual" audience gives any MMO that initial boom in subscriptions, yes. But you know who keeps the game running? The "moderate" and "hardcore" players..

Wow.. that was a long ass post!

[Ticks]

I couldn't really stomach reading another post about how only Casual MMOs will survive, but I thought it was only fair to point out that you have listed, as failures, some of the MOST casual MMOs that have ever been made.

People need to get this through their heads. MMOs do not get millions of steady subs. Half a Million is a run away success. WoW was a fluke that hit perpetual mass. Blizzard doesn't have some magical formula.

Agreed...similar to people flocking to McDonalds for a burger instead of going two blocks down the street to a little dive that sells the best burgers along the I-90 corridor

[Nel_Celestine]

Well then, lets get them to make XIV so hard no one, and I do mean no one, can complete anything. Not a single quest, not a single monster. Forget about getting gear, you'll be killed the moment you spawn into the world and will never see past the first moment you move. Will /that/ be hardcore enough for you all?

[Ralos]

Well then, lets get them to make XIV so hard no one, and I do mean no one, can complete anything. Not a single quest, not a single monster. Forget about getting gear, you'll be killed the moment you spawn into the world and will never see past the first moment you move. Will /that/ be hardcore enough for you all?

Absolute Virtue?

[Nel_Celestine]

He was beatable and everytime we did it, they nerfed that method. That was a challenge. But making the WHOLE game like that isn't the answer.