[Speculation Discussion] Our Primal

[Warlock]

Yes the possibility of Sylph's primal to be Ramuh is quite high several clues point that way.Now about we having a connection with the Empire or coming from there is a possibility too as we never found out our origin from the start we are portrayed as a passing by adventurer.

The Empire having their own summon i don't know since they keep saying they don't bow to false gods but there is art of Death Claw ..will it be connected to them?

[Zdenka]

I really like this thread but I am not sure if people are using the word "Primal" correctly in some of their statements. Let me at least attempt to illiterate what I mean.

In Eorzea there are many tribes which include Amalja, Ixali, Slyph, Hyur, Miqote, etc which can also be referred to as Races. These can be further broken down into 2 catergories: The civilized races (Miq/Hyur/Elezen/Lalla/Hume) and the tribal (izali/amal/slyph/gobs/quiquirn etc) races. The term Beastman is not the actual affiliation of the tribe but rather a slang word the civilized races have given them because they are less advanced and more tribal (hint there's a word that describes this perfectly....). The Amal'ja do not refer to themselves as beastmen, for instance.

It also goes to follow then, that the words Eikon and Primal are also derogatory slang terms the civilized races use to refer to the Gods that the heretic 'beastmen' tribes worship. Primal is the perfect word for this because it embodies what the civilized races feel about the beastmen, that infact they are primal themselves so that they would be summoning something of a primal nature; in other words back to the basic roots of civilization (fire, stone, wind are all PRIMAL to civilized races). [One of the definitions of Primal also means Fundamental; the elements are fundamental building blocks of the world]

In this sense, no, the Twelve are not Primal's and cannot be referred to as such. But the Primal's such as Ifrit and Garuda can be referred to as gods.

Its easier to make a chart following this pattern:

Tribe(or Race) - Kings - Gods

Example

Amal'ja - Unknown - Ifrit
Draconia - Nidhogg + Midgardsommr - Bahamut
Civilized Races - Possible the Sultana - The Twelve
Garlean - The Emporer - ??? (Odin?!)

But basically the point of my post is Primals are gods, but gods such as The Twelve are not Primals because the word primal is most likely a derogatory word given to them by those whom worship the Twelve.

I hope I explained my point well enough -.-;; Usually I'm pretty terrible at it but I think this is correct in the context of the game thus far. People from Spain that first came to the America's in the 1500's probably also referred to the natives as "Beastmen" or "Primals" when they arrived so I was thinking along the lines of something similar.

[NoloeTazier]

Beastmen was a term the Garleans gave for anyone associated with a Primal, they consider people with the Power of the Echo as Beastmen. Eikons are also the derogatory term the Garleans use for Primals.

[KaMuiSouZou]

Pulling some interesting quotes for everyone to look at and give references to the discussion:
---Papalymo, Yda and even Dunstan (a wildling) seem to know what the echo is in Beckon of the Elementals (last Gridania quest). They say this after the skies turn cloudy and the sky explodes - Dunstan: "So it has begun, then. I pray it is not the beginning of the end." Yda: "They're falling towards the lake, Papalymo. Are you thinking what I'm thi-" Papylymo: "Do you even need ask? We should have stopped it and we didn't. It has begun. The winds of change have already swept over Eorzea. We are only just now realizing it. The Echo has sounded..." Yda: "You and I might still be able to stop it."
---Similarly, Y'shtola and Thancred seem to be aware as well. Y'sthola is horrified when the clouds start gathering in Never the Twain Shall Meet (tho she is a bit preoccupied by Travanchet afterwards) and in Calamity Cometh Thancred starts running outside before the clouds gather when he realizes you used the echo, saying "You... That was your doing. The Echo... But that would mean..." When he walks back in he says "So this is the danger that threatened Ul'dah. Only, the shadow of this threat menaces not Ul'dah alone, but all of Eorzea." This is also in reference to what Corguevais and Ascilia said in the beginning of Calamity Cometh - Ascilia: "You don't know anything! You'll see! It's something much worse than the Empire!"
---In Fade to White, Minfilia says "After years of naught but rumors, the past several moon have seen the hill of reports on my desk grow into a veritable mountain. Why the sudden influx? And why now, of all times? Which of the Twelve is waking men anew? Which... if any at all?" She also mentions that "Were you not witness to the skies turning dark and showering the land with a storm of stars? Some of our brothers believe those who partook in this celestial event were "touched" by the Twelve, and that that is how they came by their gift."
---Later in Fade to White Minfilia says (on those with the echo who learned the truth) "Of those few who have... not one is willing to speak of what he saw at the end of the Path. It is as if they all bore witness to a truth too terrible... or too shameful to be told."
---We also know from Fade to White that the Path of the Twelve started 10 years ago (therefore since the battle at Silvertear Falls).
---In "Lord Errant" Ifrit says "I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda... or Titan? Perchance... Leviathan? Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned me of the godless blessed."
---From "Futures Perfect" after the Gaius fight when talking to your city NPC (in my case Y'shtola) she says "Yet you have also been blessed... been woken. If you would only seek the One who gave you that power, you could be granted so much more. And it is for this that I will continue to search." Your Path Companion then says, "For whom!? Who is the "One"? She pursues a power more potent than the primals... And I must find it first!"

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First of all, Yoshida mentioned at one time the 3? basic storylines in ARR. Does anyone remember what they were/when he mentioned it? It was fairly recently... I think they were 1-The Garlean Empire, 2-The Primals and 3-The Echo? I dunno if the echo story was considered a separate arc or not but it could answer some questions, so if anyone knows, it would help a lot!

Anyhoo, my take on this:
Other walkers believe it's the Twelve and Ifrit implies it could be another primal, but due to the last quote it seems to be something different. Like others have mentioned, an Elder primal seems possible (if Siren is the voice we hear, either she's an elder primal or she works under an elder primal). Bahamut and Odin are the two elder primals confirmed so far, but since the entire echo/main story was made before the Seventh Umbral era/Dalamud (Bahamut), it could be Odin... but perhaps it's neither elder primal nor the Twelve but a different/higher being?

As food for thought I'd like to remind everyone of the Ascians aka the "shadowless." The truth to the echo is noted as being too terrible or shameful to speak of, worse than the Garlean Empire, something that can be stopped (and was preventable), is more potent than the primals and is what the original story is all leading towards. The ascians are slowly introduced throughout the main story - one appears in Toll of the Warden, and they are referenced several times in the Limsa storyline. Travanchet, who doesn't have a shadow and has the same music play when he and the Ascian appear, is in league with them. He steals the seal rock key aka a horn which is very similar to the horn Corguevais uses in Calamity Cometh to summon/control monsters. (I went back to check and Corguevais has a shadow, even after he reveals his "true nature." But perhaps he'll turn into an ascian/be controlled by the ascians/work for or with the ascians later like Travanchet?) Corgeuvais was looking for the message that Ascilia's deceased father was meant to give Ul'dah (this message could be the truth of the echo). When Niellefresne looks at the girl's father's body he is stabbed and killed. (Also... Ascilia... Ascian? haha that may be nothing though). And in Gridania Dunstan seems to know something about the echo. So perhaps it's connected to wildlings/elementals as well. It would give more meaning to why an elemental seems to be on the cover of the Collector's Edition box.

tl;dr
I'm not saying the Ascians were the ones who gave us the echo, but I think they will play a big part in the original intended story of ver 1/the echo. How are they connected to the primals? No idea, just throwing this stuff out there...

[Ferth]

Without adding a new race, Sylphs are pretty much all that are left to represent lightning. Goblins are fire, Qiqirn are earth, Moogles already summoned Moggle Mog... Now, sure, the Sylphs said that the primals darken hearts and should never be called and they'd never stoop to that - but that was before Bahamut showed up and just completely wrecked them. I'd say at least a fraction of them would fall from grace and demand revenge...

Et voila - Ramuh

Amaal'jaa are fire. If Goblins are racially different from Kobolds they might have another elemental affinity, otherwise I'd probably lump them in with Kobolds as being Earth based.

[Kallera]

Amaal'jaa are fire. If Goblins are racially different from Kobolds they might have another elemental affinity, otherwise I'd probably lump them in with Kobolds as being Earth based.

Goblins=Yojimbo. Or Ramuh

I don't think the current playable races should have a primal. we come from all different walks of life, even the Garleans are proof of this.

[Orophin]

I wish it were cost effective at the time to play more than one character. A lot of that stuff KaMuiSouZou posted was from the Gridania and Ul'Dah stories, and I didn't experience them firsthand.

One of the names I recognized was Niellefresne, who is the brother of Colberneaux from the Goldsmith class quests. They explain later on more about Niellefresne and how he was stabbed by Heartseeker, a dagger that puts its victim in a sort of comatose like sleep, so they can't pass onto the next plane. His brother seemed to be trying to find a way to steal the dagger and destroy it so his brother could truly rest in peace. The dagger also belonged to the owner of the Goldsmith guild, so it sounds like some shady stuff was going on there.

Anyway, sorry for going off tangent, just regretting not getting to do Gridania or Ul'Dah storylines.

[Mudd]

I was under the impression that Nophica was the one singing to us.
However, I've really no evidence by which to stand on beyond that she is of the Second Moon (Second Month) and Dalamud was the literal Second Moon ;v

Edit: Also, I wonder if they will take Alexander and make it so it's a machine fortress created by the Garleans infused with the spirit of a Primal so that they can fully control it.

[KaMuiSouZou]

I was under the impression that Nophica was the one singing to us.
However, I've really no evidence by which to stand on beyond that she is of the Second Moon (Second Month) and Dalamud was the literal Second Moon ;v

This is very possible. In Beckon of the Elementals, a Pudgy Moogle tells us that they have a message from the elementals: "Those beckoned by the forest are here as messengers of Nophica herself - to bring the words of the Matron to all." For whatever reason, I feel more inclined to believe it's Nophica or one of the Twelve rather than Siren/a primal. However, Nophica is the guardian deity of Gridania so this quote could just be part of Gridania's storyline and not refer to the voice in the beginning which is in all three cities. Maybe the voice is indeed Nophica, and all twelve play a part in the echo, summoning and guiding us to stop the Ascians and/or Primals..?? Althyk's powers as god of space and time certainly fit the Echo. If so, perhaps that's why Louisoix could teleport only us (those touched with the Echo) and not everyone else?

One of the names I recognized was Niellefresne, who is the brother of Colberneaux from the Goldsmith class quests. They explain later on more about Niellefresne and how he was stabbed by Heartseeker, a dagger that puts its victim in a sort of comatose like sleep, so they can't pass onto the next plane. His brother seemed to be trying to find a way to steal the dagger and destroy it so his brother could truly rest in peace. The dagger also belonged to the owner of the Goldsmith guild, so it sounds like some shady stuff was going on there.

Interesting! I've only done the first class quest to all the DoH and DoL, so I did not know about Heartseeker. If the owner of the Goldsmith guild owns that dagger, then it could mean powerful people behind Ul'dah are already connected to the Ascians (or whoever the bad guys end up being)? Being stabbed at that particular moment when he looks at Ascilia's father's corpse tells me it's far more than just a Goldsmith sidestory.

[NoloeTazier]

This is very possible. In Beckon of the Elementals, a Pudgy Moogle tells us that they have a message from the elementals: "Those beckoned by the forest are here as messengers of Nophica herself - to bring the words of the Matron to all." For whatever reason, I feel more inclined to believe it's Nophica or one of the Twelve rather than Siren/a primal. However, Nophica is the guardian deity of Gridania so this quote could just be part of Gridania's storyline and not refer to the voice in the beginning which is in all three cities. Maybe the voice is indeed Nophica, and all twelve play a part in the echo, summoning and guiding us to stop the Ascians and/or Primals..?? Althyk's powers as god of space and time certainly fit the Echo. If so, perhaps that's why Louisoix could teleport only us (those touched with the Echo) and not everyone else?


Interesting! I've only done the first class quest to all the DoH and DoL, so I did not know about Heartseeker. If the owner of the Goldsmith guild owns that dagger, then it could mean powerful people behind Ul'dah are already connected to the Ascians (or whoever the bad guys end up being)? Being stabbed at that particular moment when he looks at Ascilia's father's corpse tells me it's far more than just a Goldsmith sidestory.

Ascilia's father (Warburton) had important information about the Garleans and Ala Mhigo. Corguevais tells Ascilia that Niellefresne had planned the Goobbue escape in order to gain ground with the people, but Warburton was an accidental death. You learn all this from Thancred and his poker bet in the Platinum Mirage. They were going to attempt to use Necromancy to bring back Warburton so they could hear what he had to tell, but then Niellefresne was stabbed from behind. You witness it happen by using The Echo through Ascilia that shows Mumuep and Niellefresne opening her father's tomb so we can only suspect that she stabbed him.