SE stop doing the "norm"

[Andrien]

Different kind of skill than what I meant, as Abriael pointed out.

Akihiko Matsui: "skillful play"

Battle Reform Blueprint


This is something everyone seem to forget. I'm beginning to think people here are suffering from Romnesia.

[Abriael]

Why not? I don't see how balancing is a reason for that. Yes, it makes things more difficult if you have to think about tactics, positioning and synergy at the same time. But it's much more rewarding if you achieve it, so simply saying "it's not possible because it would be too hard" is not an argument for me.

Balancing is a very important factor. A MMORPG to be successful needs to be accessible, so the level of challenge needs to stay within some rather precise parameters. Most MMORPG, for better or for worse, offer pretty much the same level of challenge.

I guess I am, what do you mean by "gating"?

It's the process of regulating how fast the average player will get to use up any given content of the game. By "gating" it behind gear checks, you know it'll take the average player a certain amount of time to burn that content, giving you time to make more.

Excuse me? I was under the impression we were having a discussion here.

There are things that are simply fact. If someone disagrees with fact, that's pretty irrelevant.

Server farms are not running on a DSL-lite type connection, and Bluehole did make it possible. Team Bloodlust seems to have done better, not concentrating only on making combat appealing, at least so far.

Server farms also don't run on physically impossible bandwidths, and need to be able to serve very high numbers of players at the same time. Bluehole and Bloodlust did part through optimization and part through streamlining mob behavior by quite a lot, especially boss encounters-wise = less tactics involved.

Even assuming B&S does just as bad as TERA, using those 2 games to say action combat = less complex encounters is generalizing. If it's not possible atm, it will be possible sooner or later. TERA and B&S did a step in the right direction, others could simply expand on it and learn from the mistakes they did.

They did not make mistakes (not in this at least), they had to compromise in order to make the action approach even possible.

We're talking about the present or the foreseable future here, not some remote future that doesn't apply at all to FFXIV: ARR.

Mind you, Korea is already way into the future compared to us, since their average connection speed and bandwidth is the best in the world, and by a long shot.

Meanwhile target-based combat is getting more and more stale with each game that is using it.

is it? According to who? Some people say that turn based combat is "stale". XCOM is there proving them wrong. Basic gameplay mechanics are just a mean to an end. There are way more important factors to the success of a MMO.

It's not clear whether the majority prefers it or just settle for it because the majority of the games come with target-based gameplay because it's the current norm. TERA didn't fail because of it's combat, but because of failing publishers (EU) and the game not giving you anything interesting except for the combat.

Besides some of the best graphics in the industry and way oversexualized visuals (which sells, a lot), it had plenty to go for it, but the combat lost its novelty for many quite fast.

Saying that people that disagree with you do so just because they "settle" for something is a tad of a copout.

Anyway, I'm not claiming TERA/B&S are better than FFXIV, but this thread is about SE settling for the norm, which is not the way to go imho.

And this thread is based on a false assumption. If SE was settling for the norm, there would be no ARR, and this game would be a F2P throwaway by now.

There's plenty way for a MMORPG to distinguish itself without reinventing the wheel. A square wheel may be original, but it simply doesn't roll as well.

[Jynx]

Lets see i quit before the cap raise so lets see all the solo content in XI.

As did I.

You missed a few things though FYI.

• Map quests
• Leveling jobs (Beastmaster, Blackmage, and Puppetmaster to a extent could reach 75 by themselves)
• Maat Fights
• Crafting
• Gathering
• Exploration
• Skillups
• Farming
• NM hunting
• Outpost warps
• Mog Tablet hunting

Just to add to your short list of solo activities.


Hell Campaign and Besieged while "Group" content could be done by yourself as no forced grouping was required and you could act solo during these events. I often remember Soloing monsters in Campaign with my Thief and Beastmaster.


So...yeah lots of content was around for solo players, obviously group participation was part of the game you wouldn't get far if you tried to go it alone from the start of the game. (Although a argument could be made if your first advanced job was Beastmaster)

[Soukyuu]

Akihiko Matsui: "skillful play"

Battle Reform Blueprint

Hmm, good point. I forgot about that one, they should be highlighting this more, not burying it in some subforum IMHO.
Well, as I said, we haven't seen anything from that so far, every battle content they shown was just spamming skills.

Balancing is a very important factor. A MMORPG to be successful needs to be accessible, so the level of challenge needs to stay within some rather precise parameters. Most MMORPG, for better or for worse, offer pretty much the same level of challenge.

I'm not saying it's not important, but you're making it sound like balancing an action game to be on the same difficulty level as target based games is impossible, which isn't the case.

There are things that are simply fact. If someone disagrees with fact, that's pretty irrelevant.

Last time I checked, facts required a citation of a trustworthy source (article, book, etc). So far your "fact" is only your opinion.

Server farms also don't run on physically impossible bandwidths, and need to be able to serve very high numbers of players at the same time. Bluehole and Bloodlust did part through optimization and part through streamlining mob behavior by quite a lot, especially boss encounters-wise = less tactics involved.

I'll be able to judge that later, but from what I've seen so far, it's not any less tactical than FFXIV, which seems to be what you're implying.

is it? According to who?

According to the success rate of your average MMO copying most from the predecessors.

Besides some of the best graphics in the industry and way oversexualized visuals (which sells, a lot), it had plenty to go for it, but the combat lost its novelty for many quite fast.

Exactly. Which didn't happen with B&S so far.

Saying that people that disagree with you do so just because they "settle" for something is a tad of a copout.

No, what I said was that if we at least had a comparable distribution between target-based and action-based MMOs, then the results might have been different. If you have 2 games of one genre and over 10 of the other, which genre has the higher chance to be chosen?

And this thread is based on a false assumption. If SE was settling for the norm, there would be no ARR, and this game would be a F2P throwaway by now.

Actually, it goes like this: people get bored -> quit waves -> no new people to fill the hole -> f2p.
It has nothing to do with a game being the norm or not, else TERA wouldn't fail, having the out-of-the-norm action combat.

There's plenty way for a MMORPG to distinguish itself without reinventing the wheel. A square wheel may be original, but it simply doesn't roll as well.

How about a wheel that is bigger or can change it's pressure depending on which terrain it's rolling over? Why settle for the same features over and over again? Where is the progress in that? Or fun?

[Firon]

As did I.

You missed a few things though FYI.

• Map quests That falls under quest.
• Leveling jobs (Beastmaster, Blackmage, and Puppetmaster to a extent could reach 75 by themselves) that was not solo content it was just something players figured out to do was not created by the dev team to be played that way....
• Maat Fights Again that falls under quest.
• Crafting
• Gathering
• Exploration Not content
• Skillups Not content
• Farming Not content
• NM hunting While you could solo Nm's they were put in the game with the intent if a few people the same level range as the nm, then they could form a small group to take them down.
• Outpost warps Not content (You know what i take that back falls under quest as well.)
• Mog Tablet hunting

Just to add to your short list of solo activities.


Hell Campaign and Besieged while "Group" content could be done by yourself as no forced grouping was required and you could act solo during these events. I often remember Soloing monsters in Campaign with my Thief and Beastmaster.


So...yeah lots of content was around for solo players, obviously group participation was part of the game you wouldn't get far if you tried to go it alone from the start of the game. (Although a argument could be made if your first advanced job was Beastmaster)

You have no idea what content is.

[Abriael]

I'm not saying it's not important, but you're making it sound like balancing an action game to be on the same difficulty level as target based games is impossible, which isn't the case.

No, I'm saying that to retain the same difficulty the player needs to be able to pay attention to the same number of factors. Is the factors involved in combat increase, other factors need to decrease in order for the game to remain accessible to the same crowd.

Last time I checked, facts required a citation of a trustworthy source (article, book, etc). So far your "fact" is only your opinion.

I checked the definition of "fact", and that's not included.

I'll be able to judge that later, but from what I've seen so far, it's not any less tactical than FFXIV, which seems to be what you're implying.

if you said you didn't want to spoil the story for yourself, I seriously doubt you managed to see any advanced encounter.

According to the success rate of your average MMO copying most from the predecessors.

You mean like wow? Yeah, definitely unsuccessful.

Exactly. Which didn't happen with B&S so far.

Actually the korean servers are already declining.

No, what I said was that if we at least had a comparable distribution between target-based and action-based MMOs, then the results might have been different. If you have 2 games of one genre and over 10 of the other, which genre has the higher chance to be chosen?

They're not different genres. There are a crapton of defining factors in MMORPGs other than targeting.

Actually, it goes like this: people get bored -> quit waves -> no new people to fill the hole -> f2p.
It has nothing to do with a game being the norm or not, else TERA wouldn't fail, having the out-of-the-norm action combat.

The "norm" in handling a MMO, when it's not successful, is to fire almost everyone, reduce the team to barebones, and go f2p until it dies. That's definitely not what SE did.

How about a wheel that is bigger or can change it's pressure depending on which terrain it's rolling over? Why settle for the same features over and over again? Where is the progress in that? Or fun?

The fact that a game has some of the same features doesn't mean it has them all. Progress doesn't mean to be revolutionary to be progressive. Originality for its own sake has no value in game development.

[Rokien]

You have no idea what content is.

You don't, content is something you can do with in the game, whether it be small or large. If you can do something in game, it's content, heck there can be content created by players, like races, tournaments, what have ya. You and every argument now is now invalid, because of this stupid statement of yours.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

You don't, content is something you can do with in the game, whether it be small or large. If you can do something in game, it's content, heck there can be content created by players, like races, tournaments, what have ya. You and every argument now is now invalid, because of this stupid statement of yours.

like your on fan service, and some more arguments

[Firon]

You don't, content is something you can do with in the game, whether it be small or large. If you can do something in game, it's content, heck there can be content created by players, like races, tournaments, what have ya. You and every argument now is now invalid, because of this stupid statement of yours.

Yup typing is content then..... Hey guys I just beat the content called saying hi to my friends!!!!

[Starlord]

because of this stupid statement of yours.

You have quite a few of them yourself Mr. Vinland. So does that make "You and every argument now is now invalid" come into play for you?

I make stupid remarks sometimes, and I know you do too, don't deny it!