Small Rant on Seal Rolls in Hamlet parties

[Wynn]

I wan't to talk about a looting behavior that I find disturbing.

I was in a hamlet party and before the last run, one player asked to switch his loot preference from one of the other drop items to a seal. I wasn't sure at the time why they wouldn't want seals to begin with if they still needed seals but when put to vote by the party leader, I said sure.

At the end of that run, a seal dropped and the guy who changed to seal won the roll over me by 3 points. As soon as he got the seal he gave it to another player who rolled a zero on that seal.

You might think, maybe he felt bad for the guy rolling a zero. Except, that player had already won a seal during our runs.

And while I don't hold ill will toward these two players for doing what they did since I had already won a seal tonight, I can't help but feel robbed since, without the guy who didn't need the seal rolling on it, I would have won the roll. For that matter, the other guy also rolling for seals was wronged by this.

These two players basically doubled the one guy's rolls on an item and at the same time reduced my and the other player's chance for a seal.

I know some of you are going to jump on this thread and say people can do whatever they want with their drops, but we are talking about someone who had no intention of keeping this seal adding an additional roll for his friend. This behavior is wrong and it amazes me that these two players did this right in full view. If these players had divulged what they planned to do if the guy who originally didn't want seals won a seal, I would have surely voted no and I'm sure the other player would have as well.

It is not ok to rig people's chances at drops and SE should do something to ensure this can't happen.

[Antanias]

Two point oh?

[tymora]

Sounds like jerks to me in your example.

However, if everything has been stated beforehand clearly, then I think it is ok to lot for another.
E.g. 5 people from one LS and 3 PUGs. The 5 people using their lot chances for 1 person from said LS while the 3 PUGs are left to fight on their own. I think that is perfectly fine.

[Wynn]

Sounds like jerks to me in your example.

However, if everything has been stated beforehand clearly, then I think it is ok to lot for another.
E.g. 5 people from one LS and 3 PUGs. The 5 people using their lot chances for 1 person from said LS while the 3 PUGs are left to fight on their own. I think that is perfectly fine.

Personally, I don't. I don't think it is ok to artificially increase a person's roll value. At that point one player is getting five rolls, five chances to win, over everyone else's one. However, if they are upfront about it then it at least gives me a chance to say no thanks and move on.

[Mikita]

Unless the loot system is revamped in 2.0 there isn't really much that can be done about this right now.

I would also feel cheated since the odds are being tipped in one person's favor by having an "extra chance" at winning the roll.

The flip side of the coin also has a valid argument in that there are no real rules against this type of behavior, and a person should be free to do what they will with an item that they rightfully won.

It's a moral grey area, and I guess it's up to us as individuals to decide where we stand on it... and for the party leader to make a call when necessary.

Side note: This exact same behavior sparked the one and only time someone was asked to leave our LS, because the majority felt it was an unethical practice. Of course the person who was asked to leave does not feel he was wrong in any way. It's often futile to try to change someone else's beliefs, so probably best to just move on and remember who you do and do not want to play with again in the future.

[bobbygunz]

The guy who wasn't rolling for seals originally obviously joined the party purely to help his friend. If he won the roll on the seal, it's his to do as he pleases, whether that be to give it to a friend or not.

It is sometimes hard to find people to join a party, so having him in the party to begin with meant that everyone had a chance to get a seal. He won the seal fairly, and he did what he wanted to with it. End of story.

[Xatsh]

Honestly my linkshell does this all the time when making a pug. 4-5 people from my ls join if one of them win the random they give the seal to the person in my ls going for the seal.

I honestly see absolutely nothing wrong with this. If he has seal as preference and you all agreed to it, and he choice to pass to his friend on what he won. That is what you get doing it in a pug.

Honestly in a pick up you should expect a 1/X shot of getting a drop where X is the number of people going for it. There is absolutely no reason for SE to change anything at all. This is an example of you all agreeing to a poor policy, next time make sure you get the party to agree to no passing seals if you think that is wrong. IF they disagree they will just kick you and get someone else, if they agree well you go on with the runs.

[Darkillumina]

While slightly unethical there are many things to take into consideration.

1. Did said person who received the seal provision? If so is he top 5 or better? It is not fair to provisioners to go to Hamlet having spent hours and/or millions of gil provisioning to get nothing in return.

2. How many seals was the person away from completing the set? Generally if someone only needs one or two seals to go I'll pass the seal to that person.

3. Were you a random pick up in a party full of link shell members? If so it is perfectly acceptable behavior. I have done many AV/CC runs where somebody helped out an LS mate and that was their prerogative.

For example, today I provisioned and got top 5 in Aleport. Since I was going strictly for seals I let my other LS mates who came along know that if an item dropped to me other than a seal I would gladly pass it. By the end of the night I had 2 seals, (1 from the npc and one dropped to me) and on the last run somebody else got a seal. Since he did not want the seal, we all rolled and my friend who won the lot passed the seal to me seeing that I only needed 2 more seals to finish the Hamlet step. I generally refuse such things but my friend insisted. I will do the same for him in the near future.

Again it's a tough situation. In my case all of us who needed a seal rolled for it. We didn't have a ringer who had all his/her seals doubling my chances. It was really just his kindness that allowed me to finish Aleport. There are many variables in their decision to be honest so I can't render judgement either way.

[Wynn]

While slightly unethical there are many things to take into consideration.

To answer your questions:

1. Did said person who received the seal provision? If so is he top 5 or better? It is not fair to provisioners to go to Hamlet having spent hours and/or millions of gil provisioning to get nothing in return.

No. Neither player were in the top 20. I was number 6 though.

2. How many seals was the person away from completing the set? Generally if someone only needs one or two seals to go I'll pass the seal to that person.

I don't know how many they had to go. However, I still had two to go myself.

3. Were you a random pick up in a party full of link shell members? If so it is perfectly acceptable behavior. I have done many AV/CC runs where somebody helped out an LS mate and that was their prerogative.

I was a random and it does appear the two may have been guildies but on different guilds at the time. I will point out it wasn't like it was 7 guildies and me. It was more half and half. However, they were not upfront about what they planned to do and attempted to do it in secret once everyone left the instance. I saw it because I happened to stay until they had no choice but to pass in my presence or have it drop into the other guy's loot list simply because I was suspicious and I was right for being so. If they had been upfront, I would have said I'll pass and left. This was late into the party after 4 runs when they pulled this because they knew the party was breaking up after that run. To reiterate, this was not some party rule that was set up, these two did this on their own.

[axemtitanium]

Wha? This is common practice. The friend probably had 3/3 seals or wasn't interested in getting seals. That's why I generally run hamlets with mostly LS to get higher chances at loot drops that you actually want. If you really want that seal, just buy it from them. Most people I've seen offer 500k-1mil.