The ARR website update that was supposed to come this week

[Elexia]

Let's put this into perspective:

I know more about Halo 4 than I did about ARR, and the former Bungie team were very much known for their secretive nature and "when it's ready" nature.

I get they want to be careful with this relaunch, but so far the most substantial thing we've learned is the Alpha date for Japan is pushed back to November from Now (End of sept) - early oct. Hell just go to:

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...?pageID=system

Where's all this information? I get the game is very much in production, but something like this should already be up, even if it's Alpha/Beta related, it will give people the idea of what's going to be featured you know? This is how the official site should be at this point, I'm not even talking out of impatience or anything, just a logical standpoint, how will this game even stand out if we know next to nothing about even it's basic systems?

[Abriael]

I see no "constant" flood in that example. It's more like a short rain of info followed by a drought, so no "few raindrops in thanalan" fits it quite nicely.

Drought? funny since this "drought" lasted exactly two day by now.

I don't see anything generic about the word "constant".

Then maybe you need to refresh your English. Lemme help. "Constant" doesn't specify a strict frequency. A piece of information a month can be defined "constant" as much as a piece of information a day, depending on circumstances, field of application and a lot of other factors. SE is definitely releasing a "constant" stream of information. The fact that that "constant" isn't as often as you like is pretty irrelevant.

The fact they needed 2 weeks to sub a 90 minute video when a fan translation is usually available within a day already makes that a bad example.

If you think translating and subtitling 90 minutes of video that features continuous talk with any degree of quality is easy or fast, you're delusional. The little difference is that the "fan translation" doesn't have any quality requirement. If the translator screws up, it's his problem alone. On top of it the "fan translation" doesn't need to be proofread and even more so, doesn't need to be greenlighted for release by the marketing team.

May want not to talk about things you don't know. Oh, wait, you have been for the whole thread.

@Elexia: just lol. Please, let us not fall in the ludicrous. Comparing the information available about an unreleased game with those of a game released ten years ago and currently going on is ridiculous.

You are totally talking out of impatience. There's absolutely nothing logical about your standpoint, let alone anything to do with marketing or any knowledge of how the gaming industry works.

PS: You know SO much about Halo 4 that you don't even know that Bungie is completely uninvolved with the game. It's being developed by 343 Industries. Go figure.

Let's not compare apples to oranges. The development process of a stand alone console game is completely different from that of a MMORPG. Halo 4 releases in a month. Micorosft is already contacting websites about the shipping of release copies, meaning that the game is pretty much completely finished. It's obvious that you know more about it than a game just heading into alpha.

[Cynthis]

The news section on the website says it has been updated Aug 16th and Sep 5th. It would have been better to not have the webpage at all than to have a virtually dead one.

[Soukyuu]

Drought? funny since this "drought" lasted exactly two day by now.

Which 2 days? Since the release of the translation (= info we got 2 weeks ago in Japanese)?

Then maybe you need to refresh your English. Lemme help. "Constant" doesn't specify a strict frequency. A piece of information a month can be defined "constant" as much as a piece of information a day, depending on circumstances, field of application and a lot of other factors.

Exactly. The thing you are not mentioning is, like the word "constant" implies, once the constant is set, it stays constant. Following me so far? A period of a month followed by a day, followed by a few weeks is not constant, but a variable. Splitting hairs? You started it.

If you think translating and subtitling 90 minutes of video that features continuous talk with any degree of quality is easy or fast, you're delusional. The little difference is that the "fan translation" doesn't have any quality requirement. If the translator screws up, it's his problem alone.

Have you ever translated an episode of a series? Including editing the translation and typesetting the subs so that not only what is spoken, but also what is shown on the screen is translated? All in one video? Followed by encoding said episode? All in half a day? I don't think so.

Fan translations not having a requirement of quality? That's BS. Yes, they won't get fired if they mess up, but that doesn't mean the translator will get sloppy, simply because they're doing it out of passion, which is a better motivator than money. Also, good translators usually take pride in their work, so whether they get paid or are just fans doing it for free, the quality will be the same.

On top of it the "fan translation" doesn't need to be proofread and even more so, doesn't need to be greenlighted for release by the marketing team.

Yes it does. It's called QC. If the translator and the editor are good, then QC is as fast as watching said 90 minute video once. So compared to a 25min episode, the amount of work would be about 4 days. But certainly not two weeks.

What you are saying is that green-lighting by the marketing team takes one and a half weeks. I don't see why the marketing team has to do anything with this, since what was being translated is a live letter that any Japanese speaking person has seen and got the info. The content of that live letter was already approved by the marketing team. If the translation is correct (checking which doesn't involve the marketing team), then we will be getting exactly the same info the others did.

The only explanation why the translation took so long is the translators being busy translating material for ARR. How much is going on behind the scenes is hidden from us, so something like "guys, the translation is going to be late, we're busy with other things" would be nice.

The whole issue and the original topic of the thread is not "we're not getting info" but "info was promised at day x, no information on why it was delayed." And that's a world of difference

May want not to talk about things you don't know. Oh, wait, you have been for the whole thread.

Rrrrright... I'm expecting a decent tone in your next reply, otherwise, don't expect a reply from me.

[Abriael]

Which 2 days? Since the release of the translation (= info we got 2 weeks ago in Japanese)?

And? Not everyone knows Japanese you know? It doesn't make it less relevant information.

Exactly. The thing you are not mentioning is, like the word "constant" implies, once the constant is set, it stays constant. Following me so far? A period of a month followed by a day, followed by a few weeks is not constant, but a variable. Splitting hairs? You started it.

Yes, you're splitting hairs, and you've started it even before I joined this trainwreck of a thread. As long as the period is roughly similar (and if you take a month in consideration as a framework it is), it can easily be defined constant.

Have you ever translated an episode of a series? Including editing the translation and typesetting the subs so that not only what is spoken, but also what is shown on the screen is translated? All in one video? Followed by encoding said episode? All in half a day? I don't think so.

As a matter of fact, I did. The difference is that I did it professionally, as I worked for an anime localization company for six years. Mind you, I took up the episode after the translation, from adaptation to subtitling and voice acting supervision, so the process had already been going for a while before it got to me.

So yeah, I know quite well the difference between fan translation and subtitling and the professional equivalent. They're nothing alike, and the fact that you compare them is honestly a tad ridiculous.

I have all the respect of the world for fansubbers and the effort they put in for free, but comparing their work to the procedures necessary for a professional translation is honestly out of the world.

What you are saying is that green-lighting by the marketing team takes one and a half weeks. I don't see why the marketing team has to do anything with this, since what was being translated is a live letter that any Japanese speaking person has seen and got the info. The content of that live letter was already approved by the marketing team. If the translation is correct (checking which doesn't involve the marketing team), then we will be getting exactly the same info the others did.

When you translate any marketing-related material to a different language (or three), it needs to be greenlighted again from scratch, because even a good translator can easily change the wording of a concept that, especially when talking about unreleased game mechanics, can make a whole lot of difference. Which means that it has to be double-checked by someone involved in development and then by marketing.

*Every* piece of promotional material released by a company will have to be greenlighted by marketing. No company with any bit of sanity would skip that passage. That's what marketing is for.

When you submit finished promotional material to marketing, they won't suddenly drop whatever they're doing and get to your stuff. It'll be put in queue and addressed as soon as possible. And then if something doesn't add up, marketing doesn't simply correct it and then greenlights it. It has to go back to the translator and then be greenlighted again.

Two weeks for a 90 minutes video is an entirely realistic timeframe.

Do apply your knowledge of fansubbing to fansubbing if you wish, because honestly that's all it applies to. We're talking about professional work here. It's a tad different.

The whole issue and the original topic of the thread is not "we're not getting info" but "info was promised at day x, no information on why it was delayed." And that's a world of difference

The whole issue of the topic is that there are people that know nothing about marketing thinking that they know better on what SE should do with their marketing. Which is honestly laughable at best.

[Soukyuu]

As a matter of fact, I did. The difference is that I did it professionally, as I worked for an anime localization company for six years. Mind you, I took up the episode after the translation, from adaptation to subtitling and voice acting supervision, so the process had already been going for a while before it got to me.

So, your answer to my question is "no", as you were only in charge for a part of the project.

So yeah, I know quite well the difference between fan translation and subtitling and the professional equivalent. They're nothing alike, and the fact that you compare them is honestly a tad ridiculous.

I have all the respect of the world for fansubbers and the effort they put in for free, but comparing their work to the procedures necessary for a professional translation is honestly out of the world.

Nothing ridiculous about it, considering the majority of anime translations I saw from fans was a higher quality product in the end than the official ones. And this is what I don't understand, if those procedures you mention are meant to increase quality, why don't official releases have typeset signs? VOB subs are bitmaps, so typesetting is possible. Why does the official translation sound so stiff in so many cases? Lastly, why is the quality of official DVDs/BDs inferior to (good) fan-encoded mkvs? That's getting off topic though, so I'll leave it at that.

When you translate any marketing-related material to a different language (or three), it needs to be greenlighted again from scratch, because even a good translator can easily change the wording of a concept that, especially when talking about unreleased game mechanics, can make a whole lot of difference. Which means that it has to be double-checked by someone involved in development and then by marketing.

*Every* piece of promotional material released by a company will have to be greenlighted by marketing. No company with any bit of sanity would skip that passage. That's what marketing is for.

When you submit finished promotional material to marketing, they won't suddenly drop whatever they're doing and get to your stuff. It'll be put in queue and addressed as soon as possible. And then if something doesn't add up, marketing doesn't simply correct it and then greenlights it. It has to go back to the translator and then be greenlighted again.

Two weeks for a 90 minutes video is an entirely realistic timeframe.

Let's assume that's what happens here. Is it really that hard for them to gives us an update when that happens?

The whole issue of the topic is that there are people that know nothing about marketing thinking that they know better on what SE should do with their marketing. Which is honestly laughable at best.

When did I ever tell them how they have to market stuff? I merely wanted to know why the information is being delayed. You're interpreting way too much into what is being said.

[Mug]

The whole issue of the topic is that there are people that know nothing about marketing thinking that they know better on what SE should do with their marketing. Which is honestly laughable at best.

Actually, that wasn't why I started this topic at all. Yoshida speficially said we would get an update early this week. It didn't happen. He also said we would get weekly updates from Gamescom and onwards. That didn't happen either. I agree that this topic has ended up about something completely different, but I just felt I needed to clarify that wasn't my intent.

Also, I can only speak for myself, but I'm more likely to listen to an opinion that is different than mine if it's said in a tone that does not belittle. I realise that you're not the only one at fault here, but conversations in this forum would be so much more interesting if people jusr showed a little more respect for each other. =)

[Yrusama]

Question is do they mean the Q&A Early this week and the website will be updated after that? Or is it what you guys are saying.

Either way, I have enough information till beta/Launch. =)

I have enough information that I don't think there's much more that needs explaining, but it would be nice if they'd at least throw more topics on the lodestone for me to look at while I craft. If it takes too long, I end up on the forums and start losing brain cells D:

[Jennestia]

There's a fine line between using common sense and "knowing better" -- Most people here are using their common sense; I mean it is fairly obvious SE has been quiet about everything and even pushing things back so we can't sit here and say "Oh well, x days ago they told us there will be no arrows in ARR!" or "We're still working on x,y,z!" -- I'm sorry but where I'm from that's not marketing nor is it solid information lol.

When someone mentioned a drought of information, pray tell Abriael , can you tell us how the battle system completely works? Would you be able to explain in full detail how housing works -- As in, can you tell us if we're able to share a house with our marriage partner for example? Are you able to tell us everything about the revamping of dungeon beyond "they will be larger?" Do you see what people mean by using common sense regarding SE not telling us much of anything?

Not to mention we got told one thing and they do the other -- They're being overly cautious about basic things we should know. Someone linked their FFXI website because that is fairly basic information and we can assume most systems will be the same, so why isn't it on a website directed at attracting new players? Especially when you understand they wouldn't want to link a player to the Lodestone which is regarding the current version it's "glory" -- If Materia still attaches to armor/weapons why not throw up a page about materia?

Do you understand now that it's not that people are pretending to "know better" it's just there's a lot that SE isn't even doing that they could be doing.

[Abriael]

So, your answer to my question is "no", as you were only in charge for a part of the project.

Considering that I also covered the role of art director first and production direction later. The question is not. While I didn't do translation directly as my Japanese isn't good enough, I was in charge of the whole project quite a few times.

Nothing ridiculous about it, considering the majority of anime translations I saw from fans was a higher quality product in the end than the official ones. And this is what I don't understand, if those procedures you mention are meant to increase quality, why don't official releases have typeset signs? VOB subs are bitmaps, so typesetting is possible. Why does the official translation sound so stiff in so many cases? Lastly, why is the quality of official DVDs/BDs inferior to (good) fan-encoded mkvs? That's getting off topic though, so I'll leave it at that.

You're comparing (good) fan encoded anime with (bad) professionally made ones. Quality varies from company to company. The bad ones have more lax procedures and less passages in production, the good ones have more tight procedures and more production steps. Simple example is the presence of a different professional figure for translation and adaptation. Good companies will have both (and thus will have two steps in the translation process, which implies more time and resources spent on it), as a good native speaker Japanese translator and a good Native speaker (insert target language here) adaptation scriptwriter will inevitably produce an higher quality script than a (albeit good) translator that does everything by himself.

A good professional localization team will easily trounce any fansubber, no matter if good or not, in term of quality, even simply out of resources, direct or indirect access to the original creators and tighter quality assurance process.

Let's assume that's what happens here. Is it really that hard for them to gives us an update when that happens?

To have to read the usual endless stream of unjustified negativity? Please.

When did I ever tell them how they have to market stuff? I merely wanted to know why the information is being delayed. You're interpreting way too much into what is being said.

You're assuming that that part was related to you. It wasn't.

Also, I can only speak for myself, but I'm more likely to listen to an opinion that is different than mine if it's said in a tone that does not belittle. I realise that you're not the only one at fault here, but conversations in this forum would be so much more interesting if people jusr showed a little more respect for each other. =)

After two years, I'm just getting a tad tired on the negligible things people manage to complain about, without mentioning those that have absolutely no idea of the processes involved in this kind of industry, but still come here like they knew better, belittling those working on this game in a rather unsavory way.

I had hoped to see that change, considering the rather unprecedented efforts the team is putting in righting what went wrong with the inituial release. Unfortunately I had to be disappointed. The internet never changes.

@Jennestia: "basic information you should know" in a game barely in alpha?

Please. That kind of detailed information is often covered by NDA even in closed beta for most major MMORPG releases.

new players aren't attracted by detailed information. They don't go read complex pages that describe mechanics. They read generic lists of features, they read previews, watch screenshots and trailers, read reviews, watch commercials, see ads, and go buy games mostly out of gut feeling and generic looks. Detailed information on mechanics is absolutely irrelevant in drawing new players.

Which is what I'm talking about when I mention people knowing nothing about marketing. They tend to confuse what they want (or their own very personal verision of "common sense") with what appeases the general public, which is the most basic mistake one could make in that field.

As a matter of fact, and I apologize if it's rather brutal, marketing-wise we're pretty irrelevant. What we, as current players of the game want to know is pretty much a secondary priority, as we're already in the bag. We'll play ARR at least for a month whatever SE does or shows, because we have that month for free, even more so if we held out this long in the first incarnation of the game. SE doesn't need to direct their marketing towards us pretty much at all.