[dev1002] The entire world lacking as a battle environment.

[Xzen]

wait ... what?



... and yet you can't even pick up the context of hypothetically getting killed while doing a leavequest?

With how well written his OP was (while I really only disagree with the SP/XP loss part) I'm surprised that his posts degenerated into flat out personal attacks so quickly.

[SogiYa]

I hadn't even noticed that he WAS the op, I guess after putting that much work into it he's kinda sensitive?

*shrug*

who the hell sings that "Answers" song anyway? doing a search turns up a mountain of crap ... morbid curiosity.

[Shiyo]

Death penalties don't exist to "slow you down", they exist to make you not want to be bad, not want to play with bad players, to be afraid of dying, and to actually feel scared and stuff. FF14 is "oh oops I died oh well!" "oh let me go suicide i don't care if I die!". No one tries to survive because it doesn't matter, your life is not on the line and it's VERY boring.
Rift suffers from the same thing, you lose 10gold if you die(less than 1 monster worth of money, a soloable monster)and I never care if I die in that game.

[Dragonhand]

Death penalties don't exist to "slow you down", they exist to make you not want to be bad, not want to play with bad players, to be afraid of dying, and to actually feel scared and stuff. FF14 is "oh oops I died oh well!" "oh let me go suicide i don't care if I die!". No one tries to survive because it doesn't matter, your life is not on the line and it's VERY boring.
Rift suffers from the same thing, you lose 10gold if you die(less than 1 monster worth of money, a soloable monster)and I never care if I die in that game.

That, that and that!

I've played Lineage 2 for years, to die usually meant losing 1 peace of gear to the first guy who piked it and a 4% xp lost (that could be recovered by 70% with healer's resurrection). We would go to the trouble of teach our clan m8s how to play in order not to die uselessly, cus the price could be a week of xp worth x9 (9 players per party) and a month of crafting work. Ok i give you that it was not fun when it appended, but it was the reason I enjoyed staying alive, cus dieing was rly rly bad.

If dieing is not bad, and all u have to do is a 2-5 min bio break... or pay a little money and move on... whats the point of avoiding death. In wow when i need to go afk i leave my character where it is, if it gets killed there is no problem... ill just res when I get back, In l2? afking out of town without 8+ guys backing you up? got to bad mad.

I'll tell you a particular episode that you will NEVER see in a game without death penalty. These happened in L2 c3 i think, I was lvl 70ish with a group of 8 more guys in the highest area of the game, the mobs spawned constantly it was hard enough. My role was support buffer (BD) my buffs would double the party's dmg. Suddenly I stopped buffing, it was 4am and yah... I fell asleep, my clan m8s stayed there around 30 min until I woke up and dragged my character to a safe zone with them escorting me. They could left me to die, but they knew that if they did, I would probably lose a peace of gear and a lot of xp. So they stayed there when they wanted to leave, for my sake. That sort of commitment for a friend, a clan m8 or even a random guy you find struggling on the road will never happen in a game without drawbacks. In wow if a player gets afk? kick him, Drag mobs and fake death on him, who cares... No one gives a damn.

I'm not hereby demanding xp penalty on death, but a significant drawback on death that will make us actually avoid dieing.

In a game where the item has not gear requirements but recommendations, losing 1 lvl will not completely downgrade you. Also if you reach rank 50 and die more then 10 times in the same day, its because you are extremely bad or some one leveled the character for you, cus I don't believe that you will make 10 partys with only bad guys nor that during the 50 ranks you haven't learned anything.


But the death penalty is only a fragment. What is mostly laking in the game is the surprise effect, at the exception of storyline quests, you already know everything that is going to happen from the start. It's like wow raids, you know them before you actually do them... It's like a spoiled movie... not fun at all.

[Demacia]

Excellent post OP. Captures my thoughts on XIV exactly.

Great thread save for a certain barbarian that can't be reasoned with.

[Xzen]

Again I have played games were gear loss and xp loss were a part of the mechanic. You're going to die and suffer the penalty. All I did was make sure I always had spare sets of gear and buffer xp. In a system where everything is risk vs reward the risk has no meaning. I'm telling you the reason death penalties exist from a developers point of view is in fact there to slow your progression to keep you playing and paying your sub longer. It's not speculation it is fact. Also the death penalties have rarely if ever made a bad player a good one. I've seen bad players slowly progress through these harsh death penalty mmos from start to finish and never get better in any way. So then I guess we could add that if a bad player can still progress even with xp loss then the penalty hasn't even added to the difficulty of the game they have just made it take longer. That doesn't add to the fun it's just a time sink.

[Boricua]

Also the death penalties have rarely if ever made a bad player a good one. I've seen bad players slowly progress through these harsh death penalty mmos from start to finish and never get better in any way.

Thanks OP~ XP/SP loss certainly won't make all 'bad players' better ones. What it is good at is fostering a sense of necessary teamwork: you ask friends, LS, shouts, forum posts for advice or to party up against particularly difficult fights in game where death is prone. Basically, things people can't do in 150 seconds. This even applies unlocking camps in XIV in Mor Dohna (sp) for instance.

Its this player cohesion that makes a realm a true battle environment (point of this thread) where players mitigate risk with strategies and teamwork, not "Lets try and just 'Return' if we die" or "A mob is chasing me that I will outrun anyway lolol".

[Xzen]

Thanks OP~ XP/SP loss certainly won't make all 'bad players' better ones. What it is good at is fostering a sense of necessary teamwork: you ask friends, LS, shouts, forum posts for advice or to party up against particularly difficult fights in game where death is prone. Basically, things people can't do in 150 seconds. This even applies unlocking camps in XIV in Mor Dohna (sp) for instance.

Its this player cohesion that makes a realm a true battle environment (point of this thread) where players mitigate risk with strategies and teamwork, not "Lets try and just 'Return' if we die" or "A mob is chasing me that I will outrun anyway lolol".

Even though the NMs we have now are a joke you still need to learn to work as a team to take them down. Same thing accomplished through actual content rather than using a superficial mechanic. I can agree that the game we have now lacks exciting content. No doubt about that. Add Beastmen tribes in all the zones so that if a newbie isn't paying attention they get murdered by a bunch of beast men. They might learn something and get the same sense of "excitement" the next time they come across these beastmen sitting around a camp fire. Maybe they will avoid them because they don't want to sit around with their hands in their pockets for 3 mins. Or maybe they will take them on to try and get their revenge. A harsher death penalty brings nothing to the table in this situation other than to encourage our young player to avoid the encounter all together and continue killing no risk mobs until those beastmen become no risk mobs. That in turn pretty much negates the purpose of adding the more challenging mobs to begin with.

[Dragonhand]

You are wrong cus sitting your ass off for 3 min is nothing.

Life is a duality of risk vs reward and without one there can not be the other, if you take risk, what you call reward is nothing but a given thing. Its the difference of saying "if things get bad lets run the hell out" and saying if things get bad just die fast re spawn and lets do other thing. It is the sentence I hate the most in WoW "die fast and respawn". The reason that almost no one does pugs in wow its cus there is no death penalty, ppl don't bother to read the guides cus if they die and make every one die the only thing they have to do is re spawn and try again over and over and over. If they lost something tangible they would be pissed of at deign and would bother into learning the tactics b4 raids. Thats why ppl like me did there first cataclysmic boss on bwd with 18k dps, did the head job, and others made us die on stupid thing like making adds, not avoiding flames. I was "trained" not to fail cus failing had a big price. Most ppl that only played wow don't care if they fail, there is no price, there is no loss. For that same reason I don't find wow rewarding and find almost all the bosses a kid's joke.

[Xzen]

You are wrong cus sitting your ass off for 3 min is nothing.

Life is a duality of risk vs reward and without one there can not be the other, if you take risk, what you call reward is nothing but a given thing. Its the difference of saying "if things get bad lets run the hell out" and saying if things get bad just die fast re spawn and lets do other thing. It is the sentence I hate the most in WoW "die fast and respawn". The reason that almost no one does pugs in wow its cus there is no death penalty, ppl don't bother to read the guides cus if they die and make every one die the only thing they have to do is re spawn and try again over and over and over. If they lost something tangible they would be pissed of at deign and would bother into learning the tactics b4 raids. Thats why ppl like me did there first cataclysmic boss on bwd with 18k dps, did the head job, and others made us die on stupid thing like making adds, not avoiding flames. I was "trained" not to fail cus failing had a big price. Most ppl that only played wow don't care if they fail, there is no price, there is no loss. For that same reason I don't find wow rewarding and find almost all the bosses a kid's joke.

Umm even though I hate WoW I happen to know for a fact that if a raid wipes even once people get pissed. If it happens over and over again it's likely that if the wipe is caused by 1 person they would likely find themselves without a guild. Also I have been around the block when it comes to MMOs so don't make the mistake of thinking I come from a WoW background. Again when everything is risk vs reward the risk becomes a non factor. You're only choice is to go for the reward or pay for an elaborate chat room because all you would do is stand in the safety of a town and chat.