Realm Reborn = downgrade?

[Zaireeka2025]

The problem is, you are complaining about something that (by the developers own admission) is not ready, that the developers didn't think should be seen yet because of that. What help is whining about something you don't even know is an actual problem? Until alpha comes out, we have no clue what to bitch about and what to praise. You are jumping to conclusions, and quite frankly there is no way in hell that this could possibly be helpful to SE.

Now, when alpha starts (you know, the point in which the developers are actually looking for input) that is when you should start voicing displeasure should such things not be implemented. But the demo in that presentation is not indicative of what will be final. They made that point very clear.

I personally don't have a problem with speculation. That's fine, and had you been "I seriously hope this isn't what will be the final product," I would support that. Instead, you are freaking out over an incomplete demo, and acting like this is what we are getting.

Asking for people to wait until alpha isn't a cop out response, it's common sense.

To be honest, both sides are jumping to conclusions. Alpha footage defenders are assuming (without knowing) that the animations will simply be added in later or that it's too early to tell, while Alpha footage questioners are assuming (without knowing) that they are missing for a reason, and that through previous Alpha footage that the animations get done first. We have no problem admitting that we simply don't know. The issue isn't that we are trying to convince everyone that the Alpha footage will be what we will get. We are simply concerned that the animation and graphics appear to be near completion. Yoshi-P has stated that the graphics are more than 80% done and that the rest is just tweaking the textures, filtering, and lighting.

We are simply raising the question, "Is this what our characters will move like? And if so, why? Because we loved the way it was."

P.S. Nobody is freaking out. People are just very adamant on their positions here. I said it before and I'll say it again, this isn't a gamebreaker for anyone in this thread. There hasn't been even one response from anybody stating that this will make or break the game.

[Xmbei]

I don't need a controller to judge a Pixar movie's level of animation quality if I can see it with my eyeballs.

This is a good set up for what I was going to say. Go look at a pre finished refined Pixar movie, (omg ugly) then look at that final product and OMFG that looks amazing it is all there.

Now on your comment on your basing off what you saw in FFXIV 1.xx thats the problem that is a finalized on the shelf edition, and for all purposes in this discussion, ARR is at the same stage as 1.xx was in pre release alpha stage, in development. You can't expect them to be on a new engine and code to be at the 100% already in development when they have stated they are far from it and working hard to get there. In some (not all like yours) posts I have read in this long train of thought we have developed, that this stage should be at 100% and they should already be working on patches and expansion packs and going for that 150% complete feel. We can't expect that till they have had their testing started and underway with feedback.

Again Zai, I am not saying you, because you admit it and show logical understanding... Sadly most have not, and with the past 8-10 pages specifically from the OP they are not... Like really... comparing that masterpiece to a Korean MMO???? They are reaching far now to try and win this discussion, on a alpha video.... I look at it right now and see nothing like a Korean MMO I see expertise that puts games like Aion and Tera to shame. So it is offensive to me and to the rest of us who have faith in Yoshi-P and a huge insult to him to call all this work he and his team have worked the past 1.5 years on for US to enjoy, and turn around and call it a Unreal engine, 5 minute copy paste build Korean mass produced MMO... That as much as it shouldn't... really upsets me... I appreciate the work this team has put into this game to make it amazing playing experience for us... and have someone that is trying to find a footing in a discussion, to call it a poorly thought out and hastily made Korean MMO... just makes me discredit the idea that this person is actually arguing for the better.

Because again, I think we can all, well almost all, agree this does not look like the games the OP is saying it does....

.... sorry that turned more long winded than I originally planned... lol

[Radnar]

If they can improve the animations without bringing back animation lock then that's fine. But the current animations are fine if it means no more animation lock.

[Zaireeka2025]

Assumptions...

I think it's safe to assume that when a game is being designed from the ground up, that the modeling and animation get handled in the first stages when creating the world. I don't think that Yoshi-P would show Alpha footage of finalized marketing footage (regardless of it being deemed Alpha) with incomplete animations of basic character movement. If I was a game designer, that would be such a basic step to have completed early on, and I wouldn't show a game off unless the game moved at a satisfactory level. With the simple fact that Yoshi-P hasn't even mentioned that the animations aren't done yet just offers more evidence that he is satisfied with the animations we are seeing in the footage. Additionally, he has mentioned that they are still optimizing the filters and textures. This makes it safe for me to assume the basic character animation is complete. It still may qualify as jumping to a conclusion, but it's a safe conclusion to jump to based on what we've heard and seen so far.

[Zaireeka2025]

This is a good set up for what I was going to say. Go look at a pre finished refined Pixar movie, (omg ugly) then look at that final product and OMFG that looks amazing it is all there.

Now on your comment on your basing off what you saw in FFXIV 1.xx thats the problem that is a finalized on the shelf edition, and for all purposes in this discussion, ARR is at the same stage as 1.xx was in pre release alpha stage, in development. You can't expect them to be on a new engine and code to be at the 100% already in development when they have stated they are far from it and working hard to get there. In some (not all like yours) posts I have read in this long train of thought we have developed, that this stage should be at 100% and they should already be working on patches and expansion packs and going for that 150% complete feel. We can't expect that till they have had their testing started and underway with feedback.

Again Zai, I am not saying you, because you admit it and show logical understanding... Sadly most have not, and with the past 8-10 pages specifically from the OP they are not... Like really... comparing that masterpiece to a Korean MMO???? They are reaching far now to try and win this discussion, on a alpha video.... I look at it right now and see nothing like a Korean MMO I see expertise that puts games like Aion and Tera to shame. So it is offensive to me and to the rest of us who have faith in Yoshi-P and a huge insult to him to call all this work he and his team have worked the past 1.5 years on for US to enjoy, and turn around and call it a Unreal engine, 5 minute copy paste build Korean mass produced MMO... That as much as it shouldn't... really upsets me... I appreciate the work this team has put into this game to make it amazing playing experience for us... and have someone that is trying to find a footing in a discussion, to call it a poorly thought out and hastily made Korean MMO... just makes me discredit the idea that this person is actually arguing for the better.

Because again, I think we can all, well almost all, agree this does not look like the games the OP is saying it does....

.... sorry that turned more long winded than I originally planned... lol

I understand where you're coming from. I remember reading the Korean MMO slippery slope comment. Whoever made that comment was probably overexaggerating what they fear the game will appear like to them. I personally don't feel that way because I know Square Enix is making this game. I also appreciate the hard work the team has put into the game, and it will be a masterpiece of graphical achievement regardless of whether they implement the missing animations or not. What made FFXIV 1.xx so unique compared to other MMO's was it's stellar and unique animation quality. We simply want to preserve that for ARR as well if at all possible.

My concern revolves mostly around the fact that the pre-alpha footage from Gamescom 2009 of FFXIV shows that animations are what gets done very early in development. And this is the animation we got for FFXIV from that point on.

[Firon]

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking on a more basic level earlier in this thread. Animation lock has to do more with battle and timing with ability animations vs. casting effect. Well explained, Shougun. I may not be a programmer myself, but the basic concept should be evident based on what's been said about FFXIV 1.xx's animation lock issues. A new animation code is being programmed in from the ground up. There's no reason why we can't have fluid movement if (and I know I sound like a broken record) Guild Wars 2 can do it.

/justsayin

Just saying they added /facetarget to stop the char cause the movements of the stop animation take forever.

[Shougun]

Just saying they added /facetarget to stop the char cause the movements of the stop animation take forever.

With animation blending "taking" forever or what have you is not an issue.

Blending the stopping with your next action (casting, moving again, WS) is completely possible (though it sounds a little bit like magic or a crazy number of animations required - it however is just really cool math going on with only a few animation sets).

Back in the day you used to have to wait for animations or break them or create hundreds of transition animations. Now you dont have to, and its not unreasonable to expect this. Specially since Yoshida said they are adding it.

Perhaps the system wasn't completed at showing of the video we've seen. But being cautious to make sure they didn't create a incomplete animation blender or give up on blending animations is not unwarranted. I just wish our English representatives or the development team could respond on issues, perhaps this is expecting too much in the developers extremely crunched time - but I hope community representatives can respond to unique threads at least once (and then leave it up to the players to propagate that info as questions repeat).

[HiirNoivl]

Just saying they added /facetarget to stop the char cause the movements of the stop animation take forever.

The stop motion will probably be removed completely.

[SwordCoheir]

Round infinity: Um, they also said in this video they are still working on it all right now, so we still have 2 weeks or 3 of fine tuning adjustments, before we get into Alpha. I think they can make a lot of changes in that time, since ( I am going out on a big sturdy tree limb here...) Look what they HAVE accomplished on a new engine and coding in a year and a half, what usually takes a company 4-6 years to do.

They can, you would be surprised just how much stuff can change and be redone during both the Alpha and Beta phases. In some cases they actually scrap entire sections of code and rebuild it from the ground up just to make it work.

Let's not forget were dealing with an entirely new development team here with a new guy at the helm that's made it a point to listen to the concerns and woes of his customers, not Tanaka who's had a notorious history of "my way or the highway" customer service quality that dates back to the early years of FFXI.

(And yes I realize you addressed this in a later post, but I already had it written up. XD)

My concern revolves mostly around the fact that the pre-alpha footage from Gamescom 2009 of FFXIV shows that animations are what gets done very early in development. And this is the animation we got for FFXIV from that point on.

Having Animations done and having the engine to implement those animations are entirely different things when it comes to the development of a game. Animations are done very early in the development phase, however they can't do much else with them until the main engine (what controls other engines such as movement) and all the other parts of the game is developed enough where they can establish boundaries, conditions, and effects attached to that animation, and most of that isn't fully developed till about the start of the Alpha Phase.

Considering the Alpha is still at least a month away and the footage is around a month old now the playable demo Yoshi shown may be the absolute earliest workable form of Alpha, IF it wasn't specifically created and put together as a demo which wouldn't include full features. There was a reason I underlined that, specifically because demos are a far cry from a finished product. Want an idea what I'm talking about, take any demo that was released before the final game came out, play it, then go play the finished product. I could probably safely bet 100 bucks alot changed.

In either case, to be perfectly honest there is no real win-win situation where you try to make smooth transitions and quick, precise, and responsive gameplay and they're probably struggling to find a good compromise between the two, especially when they said animation lock is going to be eliminated in ARR.

[Zaireeka2025]

Having Animations done and having the engine to implement those animations are entirely different things when it comes to the development of a game. Animations are done very early in the development phase, however they can't do much else with them until the main engine (what controls other engines such as movement) and all the other parts of the game is developed enough where they can establish boundaries, conditions, and effects attached to that animation, and most of that isn't fully developed till about the start of the Alpha Phase.

Considering the Alpha is still at least a month away and the footage is around a month old now the playable demo Yoshi shown may be the absolute earliest workable form of Alpha, IF it wasn't specifically created and put together as a demo which wouldn't include full features. There was a reason I underlined that, specifically because demos are a far cry from a finished product. Want an idea what I'm talking about, take any demo that was released before the final game came out, play it, then go play the finished product. I could probably safely bet 100 bucks alot changed.

In either case, to be perfectly honest there is no real win-win situation where you try to make smooth transitions and quick, precise, and responsive gameplay and they're probably struggling to find a good compromise between the two, especially when they said animation lock is going to be eliminated in ARR.

Well put. If you're right, then I hope something gets added (during alpha testing) into the animation for stopping, landing, and leaning unique to the new engine.