Realm Reborn = downgrade?

[Shura]

Don't bother, I am not even sure you know what fallacies are.




"Last you checked" lol You know someone on the staff personally that told you over a beer or something; "Yeeaaahhhh, we COULD have kept the graphics in 2.0 looking killer with all this new stuff we're adding, but then we remembered we really hate making money and were like, forget it!" ???

And the point you make about about why xiv failed proves my initial point about graphics not being the end all be all in what determines a games success. Also, while tactics wasn't made recently, Minecraft was, with even worse graphics than tactics, an the masses loved it.

They also said the gamescom footage was run basically at ps3 specs. We should just wait until we see the beta to decide how we think it should look.

What are u talking about? i never said anything about 2.0, i was comparing FFXIV at launch to the current version (1.23), with all the added content. The point i was trying to make was that Yoshi and the new team didn't need to take out animation or graphics to add in all the content. "Last i checked" was referring to last i logged in, but seems like you completely misinterpreted my entire post.

I never said graphics was everything, in fact in my post i also said that even with the animation out everyone was gonna still end up playing ARR.

I don't know where your getting your info from but i don't remember them ever mentioning that the gamescon footage being run on a PC with similar specs to PS3. In most interviews at Gamescon, the interviewers stated that Yoshida pulled out a vaio with similar specs to PS3 that ran ARR to show the difference between the higher end PC and lower end PC. If there was indeed a official post that said gamescon footage ran on a PC similar to ps3 then plz post link to source.

Honestly reading your post, seems like your simply trying to pick a fight. Your first point makes no sense, since in my post i stated "current version", i don't see the point of your 2nd point since in my original post i also said graphics was not everything and i simply want to know the source to your 3rd point.

[Nemy]

Nitpicking pre-alpha footage is pointless for the following reasons:

1) You haven't seen it yet
2) You haven't played it yet
3) They're not accepting your feedback yet.

See my first post. Why don't you join alpha and find out whether or not you care?

Your argument is invalid for the following reasons.

1) We have seen it
2) There are very solid reasons to think the shown animation will end up being the final product such as :
-The date of the demo shown is too close to Alpha, and character animation is a fundamental thing that is always done before Alpha testing.
-The difference is huge, we're not talking about character hair floating here, its like they threw away the whole thing and replaced it with #263863 generic animation from World of Genericraft.
-It makes sense to do it, if they chose to go the easy way of addressing the issues of animation lock and implementing jumping.
3) We shouldn't care if they "accept our feedback" yet, this is SE official forums, and this is the place, but most importantly the time to talk about it.
4) If we wait until Alpha it would be more difficult to change such a huge thing as animation. Its not a quest bug i can report and wait for the next patch.

[Reitsu]

when alpha comes out we will see the game and post feedback on what we think is wrong and who knows maybe they will listen to the alpha testers

[Esk]

They are Pushing down the graphics will kinda know that much, I like the art style change myself but you can see from the lower detail look of the armour, an the plastic look of the dragoon that we have lost something.
But I guess if they want to get more people and things loading on screen it was going to happen to a point.

But i'll agree with OP i didn't expect all the little animation touches that help'd put the game ahead to go, maybe like others say it is just because it's Pre Alpha but i kinda doubt it.

With the PS3 + people with average or lower PC's able to play though it adds a lot to the potential income to the game, which is what its about at the end of the day.
So unfortunately I think the nice touches will most likely go with 2.0.
It would be nice for what were seeing to be the standard and say 6moths or so from launch a DX11 package and some touched up animations for people with a decent spec PC's.
(i'd even pay for it tbf i'm so bored with games being held back for low end machines)

[bobbygunz]

The current animations are great and all, but what I'd really like to see is something like this for character movement animations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ea-CXxBEYg
Such a system would at least keep my character from floating off the ground or getting his feet clipped partway into it! I was quite disappointed to see floating characters in XIV after years of seeing them float in XI. It would be swell if the monsters got the same treatment, especially if their posture can adjust for changes in ground slope to prevent their tails/etc. from going through the ground.
Newer video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29ZEvxwq_F8

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2zS6bvCYo

[Wobi]

I really hope there is a dev response to put an end to this pointless bickering. There is more conjecture in this thread than I can stomach. Fact is, no one knows and nor will we until the first Alpha tester breaks the NDA and lets us know. You'll obviously need to check other forums as any such breach of the NDA will not be posted here lest they lose their main account as they rightly should. Many people are jumping to conclusions on both sides of the argument and covering their ears to anything contrary to their point of view.

This sort of thing is the exact reason SE tries so hard to play it close to the vest. Any tidbit of information is scrutinized and pondered over and people form concrete ideas about abstracts. The character models and animations in FFXI continually improved over the original version so many years ago. It could be that they changed some of the physics, or perhaps they played it safe and turned some things off for stability so they didn't have a crash in the middle of the first time anyone has seen gameplay footage. I'd wager the intelligent move would be to notch the settings down a bit.

From someones prior post of Alpha footage, there was a similar character movement to that see in the new ARR footage. Yet when I played in the Beta the animations we currently have in the game were all present.

Also, don't get me wrong, I am no SE apologist. I played this game from launch and it became unbearable after a year, thankfully they followed up on their promises and made a fairly decent game that continues to improve. They appear to be on the right track this time around so I'm feeling just a wee bit hopeful.

[Nemy]

Don't bother, I am not even sure you know what fallacies are.

Today kids, we learn about fallacies!

Example 1 :

lol You know someone on the staff personally that told you over a beer or something; "Yeeaaahhhh, we COULD have kept the graphics in 2.0 looking killer with all this new stuff we're adding, but then we remembered we really hate making money and were like, forget it!" ???

This is a classic example of what we call : "False Dilemma"

"two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more"

Biggs proposes that SE either

1. Absolutely needed to downgrade the "graphics" in order to add more content. (although the thread is not about graphics, that's another fallacy, i'll get to it in a minute...)

or

2. Hates money.

When in reality, there are other options for example : "being able to keep your "graphical" quality while adding more content, yet you choose the easy way of trading an existing element for something new"

Example 2 :

Pay attention now, this is a little bit more tricky.

Minecraft was, with even worse graphics than tactics, an the masses loved it.

This an example of "Affirming the consequent", while also fitting definitions of a "Faulty generalization"

"the antecedent in an indicative conditional is claimed to be true because the consequent is true"

Biggs here proposes that Minecraft has "bad graphics" and it is loved, therefore every game with "bad graphics" (assuming FFXIV) -will or could- be loved. (regardless of genre, target group etc...)

Example 3.

This is simple, very often observed, and could be really detrimental to any conversation.

Biggs started replying in this thread derailing and misrepresenting my (quite detailed about animation) original post, referring to the subject in discussion as "graphics"

This is the old and known "Strawman Argument", a fallacy that's never missing in any forum on the interwebs.

No, i'm not talking about "graphics" you fallacious galka, i specifically talk about character animation.

[KamikazeMan]

I'm disappointed by it, but the pros far outweigh the cons so I don't pay much mind to the downgrade in animations.

[Gramul]

Graphics = junk like resolution, polycount, 2D or 3D, color count, and what effects can be implemented.
Art style/direction = the actual visuals, if they're cartoony or realistic, what setting they represent, basicly how everything looks.
Animation = how characters and environments move, and while they assist art direction and style, they are a completley different animal from graphics. 3D animation is sort of like a really advanced form of puppeteering, like claymation.

While all these things are connected, they are the furthest thing from equal, so be careful how you talk about them.

[Nemy]

^ Exactly.

Also, no matter how good the character design is, (included in Art style), if animation is not of equal quality, it drags the whole experience down with it.