I wouldn't mind FFXIV becoming a WoW clone in the casual/hardcore appeal if...

[Churchill]

The fact that you're referring to a time when MNK or SAM or RDM could be considered a viable tank for Tiamat just shows that you probably didn't even play until at least 4 years after release. Even the XI fans acknowledge some aspects of the game had started to go easymode as early as ToAU. From what I'm reading it seems like most of the people criticizing XI started playing at the same time you did. Both games have gotten significantly easier with time, so you can't compare new XI to old WoW and vice versa.

I really wish 'lol' could be posted without requiring more characters

not to mention, I have another post in this thread which points out why XI was seemingly more difficult when it was released.

[fusional]

I just don't have the time to play FFXI all over again... I'm surprised most of the people here don't feel the same way. Seeing as how we were all around 13-16 when we started playing the game. It's been 10 years, we're older, we have jobs/careers, have to take care of family etc... I personally, can't be bothered to camp HNMs for hours like I used to. Showing up to my 7:30am class tired as fuck cause I was up for Nidhogg at JP time is not something I want to or can repeat. That said, I would still like to play a game where I can partake in endgame and be rewarded for my time.

This is why instanced, accessible raids that can be done with a group at any scheduled time is the way to go. Along with a loot system that rewards progress and completion of content instead of luck. I don't want to see Moogle and Ifrit again, I want to see Garuda though.

i've never said anything about supporting overly grindy, RNG-based content, though. i'm simply pointing out that it never makes any sense in any context for someone to feel entitled to the same reward as another person who is putting in 10x, 20x, or 100x the time/effort.

that isn't to say the person putting in less time/effort should be rewarded with nothing. not at all. but it is to say simply that it's a double standard for them to try to project the 'entitlement' argument onto the people who *do* put in the extra time/effort.

would i love to make a million dollars for ten hours of work? sure! we all would. does that mean we should expect the guy who put in a lifetime of work for that million dollars is no more deserving of it than we are, with our ten hours of investment, or that if he feels he deserves that kind of reward for his time that somehow *he* is the one with the feeling of entitlement, with thinking he should be treated like a special case?

it's projection on the part of the person who either doesn't want to or cannot put in the same effort for the same reward.

i don't think anybody is saying a casual gamer shouldn't be able to earn decent stuff for what time they can invest. if they can't, why should they keep paying and playing? but does that casual player deserve relic as much as the hardcore player who invested 100 hours or whatever into it?

no. and especially not since there are decent alternatives that don't require the kind of time or money that relic does.

the bottom line is that for an MMO to be successful, it needs to have content for all types of gamers with all kinds of play schedules. it needs to have a gear progression that everyone can start with, and improve on as they're able to put in extra time or effort to achieve those better rewards. there should be things they can work for little by little over time that may not be better, but are comparable to the things raiders with more time are getting. and even with raiding there should be different levels for people with different possible time commitments.

i've said it a million times before, and i apparently have to keep saying it... but i'm not against casual content. quite the opposite. i think it's vital for the livelihood of any MMO- since the majority of any playerbase is usually casual by de facto. but there also needs to be stuff for the mid-cores and the hardcores. and the mid-cores and the hardcores shouldn't have to sacrifice content just so the casuals can have more.

you need to simply provide more for all of them.

the thing is, FFXIV IS predominantly casual (outside of the gross RNG drops), and yet all i ever see are casuals complaining that EVERYTHING in the game should be more casual for them. rather than letting the midcores and the hardcores have their stuff, they want the entire game to be one huge casual theme park.

i want you guys to have your content. you shouldn't NEED to grind away endlessly in a videogame to get something out of it. but don't try to take away what little content the midcores and hardcores have. that's just ridiculous.

WoW keeps coming up in these threads because for quite a while they did a pretty great job of pulling off that very balancing act between casual/mid/hardcore content and rewards. it was a little too heavily weighted in favor of hardcores at the start, and since it's teetered further toward the opposite extreme. TBC was considered the best expansion for raiding because it did have a pretty great balance and allowed for gear/content progression even IF you weren't hardcore. it just took you a little longer than it did for the hardcores, and it still felt meaningful in the end.

i'm pretty sure yoshi realizes this and is pushing for a similar system for this game. you can't please all the people all of the time (just look at these ridiculous forums. people complain about literally ANYTHING), but you can try do your best to please most of them most of the time. as long as this doesn't interfere with your ability to execute solid game design, you're golden.

that's all i want. something for everyone. but that means something for me, too, as a hardcore. that's the point. all the other stuff is just splitting hairs over what people are calling easy and what they're calling difficult weighed against how much experience they actually have and what kind of perspective they have.

[Gramul]

I dislike the XI view of "hardcore"

The very view of hardcore vs casual in the industry is based on the time one has to spend on a game.

That's why whenever they sell a game with a casual audience in mind, it can be played in short spurts.

[NefGP]

Or you know, SE could ditch the whole Tanaka-era BS once and for all and take a page from Matsui's book (Abyssea) and actually have an endgame that's legitimately difficult, but isn't a completely punishing grindfest either.

This is a game afterall, and people have lives. Trying to figure out a seemingly impossible boss, and then finally winning and getting that epic equipment is far, far more rewarding than grinding away at something for weeks on end hoping to get lucky. Excessive time-sinks are a sign of weakness, that you can't really design truly engaging content. Yes, you need to stagger things somewhat but all too often developers cross the line and it just makes endgame activities more frustrating than fun, especially when drama happens as a result.

[fusional]

if your ENTIRE endgame resembles abyssea, people will find it unappealing and quit for the same reasons they did due to abyssea. just as if your ENTIRE endgame resembles RoZ ground kings people will find it unappealing and quit for the same reasons they did due to RoZ ground kings.

for the life of me i still can't understand this "well i like this one thing so everything in the game should resemble this one thing" mentality.

[Inkie]

don't know who you are, and i don't particularly care. but if WoW endgame was such a breeze, feel free to post your armory. surely it will be loaded with difficult time-relevant (ie: not going back to faceroll through level 80 content at level 85 for a mount you weren't good enough to earn when it was actually hard) raid achievements. surely.

Yeah, expected a response like this from you... If you don't care who I am, then you shouldn't ask who I am. Obviously, you do.. Me on the other hand, could genuinely careless who you are/were.. as I'm speaking from experience and don't need anyone to tell me what I already know... In any event, since you asked... my WoW toons are old as dirt but feel free to look them up since you care so much.. I can't post links from work (can't even access wow site).. Lightning Blade (Druid - Chimlon; DK - Inknik; Warlock -Fumumalu). Also had a cupl 80's on alliance side (but so did everybody... as I said... cakewalk for alot of ppl...).

No need to write a wall-o-txt reply to this, like you just did with that other guy.. I heard your opinion on the matter.. and moved on.. to each his/her own.

[Andrien]

The very view of hardcore vs casual in the industry is based on the time one has to spend on a game.

That's why whenever they sell a game with a casual audience in mind, it can be played in short spurts.

Its not that. I just don't want my time and effort to be used for just for one person. Whatever content they bring I just want it to reward everyone that put in work into it, not just a single person.

[fusional]

No need to write a wall-o-txt reply to this, like you just did with that other guy

maybe you should read it. you might learn a thing or two. but otherwise, you're right. no need for a wall of text here. no alone in the darkness achievement (not even three lights? come on) for 10 or 25, no firefighter for 10 or 25- not even any observed achievement for 10 or 25. if WoW was so easy, why didn't you breeze through these?

but no, you're right. kiting kirin around some pillars for half an hour is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder. my mistake.

[Kiote]

maybe you should read it. you might learn a thing or two. but otherwise, you're right. no need for a wall of text here. no alone in the darkness achievement (not even three lights? come on) for 10 or 25, no firefighter for 10 or 25- not even any observed achievement for 10 or 25. if WoW was so easy, why didn't you breeze through these?

but no, you're right. kiting kirin around some pillars for half an hour is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder. my mistake.

Like everyone else, she was prolly like "Hell with this, I'm bored." and went to play something good.

[fusional]

Like everyone else, she was prolly like "Hell with this, I'm bored." and went to play something good.

everyone else, huh? you mean like the 100k people playing ffxi, or 50k playing ffxiv?

while WoW sits pretty at 10 million?

another solid "i have no idea what i'm talking about" fanboy post. commendable.