I wouldn't mind FFXIV becoming a WoW clone in the casual/hardcore appeal if...

[kazaran]

The Ai in XI was better attuned then WOW (stupid AI-if you ever worked on the database clones you understand why its so limited) and still better then XIV's. I miss AI that would learn to counter you commonly spammed abilties, and track you for a long distance. It was a challenge.

[Laraul]

...The hardcore aspect was more like XI's view on hardcore. IMHO, XI's endgame was viewed much more difficult (see: timesink) than that of WoW's, however XI didn't have the appeal that WoW did for the general public. I wouldn't mind making the first 80% of the game casual friendly, but that last 20% should be painstakingly tough, and really provide a challenge to the hardcore players/XI enthusiasts (which there seems to be a decent amount of).

There is a lot of stuff in WoW that is painstakingly tough. WoW really isn't as casual as you might think. It can be pretty tough.

[Byakko]

TL;DR: Some people have more free time than others, and want to feel special because of it.

IT'S CRAP LIKE THIS THAT IS KILLING GAMING!

Some people like you want everything handed to them with little to no effort. Why do you want to hold others back because you can't play as much? Whats going to keep more active people playing if there is nothing for them to achieve? WoW has infected the MMO playerbase with this mentality that no one can be better than anyone else so as to not hurt anyone's feelings.

Also, comparing the endgames of WoW and XI, all I know is I saw a much higher % of max level players completing the final raids of every WoW expansion than I saw people clearing the more difficult dynamis, killing wyrms, sky, sea etc.

OPs solution satisfies both aspects of the player base, why do so many have a problem with there being more time consuming/difficult content for people who play alot. XI had the strongest community of any MMO I have played because it had a very active, loyal playerbase that stayed with the game for years. SE should be trying to keep those people around. If we get 6 millon subs who login for 30 mins a week a la WoW, do you guys really think that is going to improve the game?

[Priya]

Honestly, I think SE is going in the split rewards direction. (See Ifrit Extreme and Hard Mode Darnus as current examples/testing the water for that type of system here). Regular mode and hard mode raids are a big part of how WoW rewards both casual and hardcore players right now-- there is a very large disparity of people who can clear hard mode content at release compared to those who cant. (They even added a raid finder--easier than regular mode raids--for people who are very short on time, super casual gamers, or just mentally challenged.) They also use the token reward system, although you can't get as many items in one go now as much as you used to (there's a low cap on badges and a high cost for items).

SE should be fairly careful with how they approach time sinking. TERA is a big example-- endgame is grinding dungeons with terrible drop rates, and farming tons of money both to enchant items. It's like the materia system here, but it works a little differently. Westernized TERA doesn't penalize you with loss of the item though. Before it came to NA/EU you could lose an enchant level if you failed. Now you just fail and nothing happens. I do dislike the materia system here just because it's a bit reminiscent of TERA's enchanting.

Keep in mind, too, one thing that draws people to WoW/Rift is the ability to play on a schedule (Rift maybe not quite as much where massive zone invasions are concerned). Scheduled gameplay was really only a problem in XI where HNMs were concerned, but that still can be a turn off to a large group of people. Many would like to experience something like that more than the one or two times a week when the window falls during reasonable hours for them.

As far as hard vs. easy, no game is really hard unless you fail to understand what you're supposed to do and thus, or in spite of, fail to execute it properly. I'm sure it's pretty difficult to strike a balance between time sink, RNG, and straight difficulty.

P.S.-- I don't think some of you realize just how annoying/aggravating it is for you to continually bash WoW/SWTOR/Rift/TERA as if those games or anyone who has ever played them attack you personally on a daily basis. Where WoW is concerned, I'm not saying it is the end all be all game, nor is it super exciting. It just makes no sense to be so outrageously upset at a game you've never played. None of those games got everything right, but each one has brought something good to the table, as well as some nonsense that should never be implemented again.

As someone who has played all 4 (plus XI) and experienced their communities, I always held Final Fantasy players to much higher standards. I've been shocked and disgusted (and, sure, I've lol'd a good deal) to find this place so close-minded, judgmental, and unwilling to discuss or even acknowledge anything outside its own little world.

[Jennestia]

Technically it was, as far as boss fights and mechanics where concerned, what XI people call hard is time consuming content or 0.00001% drop rates to pop bosses etc etc.

Those drop rates never existed in FFXI, not even Salvage -- they existed in most Korean Games, maybe you're confusing the two?

[Kiote]

Technically it was, as far as boss fights and mechanics where concerned, what XI people call hard is time consuming content or 0.00001% drop rates to pop bosses etc etc.

Actually, what people considered hard in XI was the fact that you couldn't recover from a mistake in a Boss fight. You had to do it right or you lost. Once you knew how, it was easy.

In Wow, you can have half your party completely oblivious to whats going on and still win, even if the fights required more mechanics.

[Gramul]

TL;DR: Some people have more free time than others, and want to feel special because of it.

IT'S CRAP LIKE THIS THAT IS KILLING GAMING!

No. It's ideas like "my way of having fun is more valid than your way" that's killing gaming.

You don't just sit on your ass for that kind of content. Simply having more free time isn't going to cut it. You have to work for it. You have to show patience and commitment. You have to show that you're willing to put a valuable piece of your life to gain something incredible in the game.

All I want is reward progression.

Repeating something 100 times and be no closer to what I wan't than when I started just because I didn't get lucky is a ridiculous system.

Give us tokens, seals, totems, points or whatever when we succeed and I'll be happy to grind something 100 times because I'll know that all this work will pay off.

Hardcores will get their rewards faster and be special/first because they play more, and casuals will get theirs too eventually and nobody's effort will be wasted.

Happiness for everybody.

I think this is a perfect solution.

[fusional]

people viewing ffxi's endgame as more difficult than WoW's probably never did anything harder than grind heroics and run kara once or twice.

In Wow, you can have half your party completely oblivious to whats going on and still win, even if the fights required more mechanics.

and this is where someone underscores exactly what i just said. thanks.

P.S.-- I don't think some of you realize just how annoying/aggravating it is for you to continually bash WoW/SWTOR/Rift/TERA as if those games or anyone who has ever played them attack you personally on a daily basis. Where WoW is concerned, I'm not saying it is the end all be all game, nor is it super exciting. It just makes no sense to be so outrageously upset at a game you've never played. None of those games got everything right, but each one has brought something good to the table, as well as some nonsense that should never be implemented again.

As someone who has played all 4 (plus XI) and experienced their communities, I always held Final Fantasy players to much higher standards. I've been shocked and disgusted (and, sure, I've lol'd a good deal) to find this place so close-minded, judgmental, and unwilling to discuss or even acknowledge anything outside its own little world.

this. right. here. <3

[Duelle]

Confession time: I thought WOW's end game was more difficult than FFXI's.

It was. You didn't have gear swaps to save you, you had to learn how to work with everyone in the group because class stacking couldn't save you (barring what happened at Sunwell Plateau and during Bastion of Twilight), and everyone had to be coordinated.

Mechanically, XI's fights were ridiculously simple. This I blame on the dated engine and limitations on what you could do with a boss fight. Best examples is the new Dynamis Lord fight, which is only "hard" because he splits into three, one of which is the real one, and if you kill the wrong version, he explodes and wipes the raid. That's not hard; that's turning a boss fight into a russian roulette game.

In Wow, you can have half your party completely oblivious to whats going on and still win, even if the fights required more mechanics.

Yes and no. It wasn't so bad in 40 mans because you had a ton of extra bodies. It's harder to recover in 10-man raids because of the smaller number of people involved. Though you have to admit, while it is alright for certain mechanics to one-shot you (Hagara's ice walls), it's okay to have others that increase your chances of dying over outright killing you (fallin icicles during Hodir). And don't think people got away scot-free. There is a reason why addons like Failbot exist, after all.

[Jennestia]

That's not hard; that's turning a boss fight into a russian roulette game.

Which describes a lot of newer MMO boss fights -- if you're unable to dodge (hence: dodge a bullet) you're dead. If you're unable to find a weak point in x amount of time (hence: dodge a bullet) you're dead.

XI isn't the only MMO that had "russian roulette boss fights".