2.0 Armoury System & Multiple Jobs? Concerns

[Mijin]

I read the whole post and I think OP makes a very valid argument.

In my opinion I think that the current job/class system is just a total mess. They should have never used this class system in the first place an stuck with traditional jobs right from the get-go. After they changed directors, Yoshida took a step in the right direction by attempting to fix this, but to me it seems like they were afraid to get rid of the class system entirely because they were afraid of offending people who already chose their classes.

The class system was a really bad idea and a large part of why this game failed. As it stands now it's nothing but an obstacle getting in the way of adding new jobs with a traditional feel to them. With the release of this class-only armor, and from what's been mentioned in interviews, they're planning on adding content in which it will be preferable for us to play classes over jobs... I don't want to be forced to carry around two sets of gear for the same class/job because they're going to add content that will force me to want to use THM over BLM. The whole things stupid. They would have been much better off just to copy the Job/Sub Job system from XI.

[Kafeen]

It does have problems.

Either new jobs need to span from a new class, this gives the most flexibility but will most likely leave a 1 class to 1 job ratio rendering the system kind of pointless.

Or they span from the old class which leaves you with little levelling to do, and little diversity between the jobs due to them sharing so many of their abilities.

The diversity issue could have been and still could be fixed by moving the majority of abilities from the class to the job, keeping only a few core abilities on the class and perhaps offering class unique abilities that are lost after equipping the job.

This though would still leave the issue of little levelling to do, something a lot of people enjoy. Especially with so many people already having all DoW/DoM classes maxed, if new classes aren't added, all of those players will miss out on a lot of the levelling content in ARR.

I hope SE have a good solution for remedying this situation.

[Viritess]

Dunno if i agree the class system is why it failed at launch. There seemed to be plenty wrong at Launch. The Class system and to an extent the jobs ontop of them is why i actually enjoy the game. If it was the standard 1 class per character style game i'm not sure it would have kept my interest as it has.

Jobs without classes would just make jobs the classes. And even though classes remain semi specialized, Jobs are even more so. I belive what they need more then just trashing the class concept is to make classes less like lesser versions of Jobs and more of what the jobs lack, they have more of, but what the jobs do well, they have less of.

The Armory system itself is one of the big draws to FF14 for me. If i want a new character for every class theres a plethera of games out there that do that.

Something that could assist classess as a short term fix could be some more class only gear that really defines what the jobs lack be it bonuses or something extra that alone we may think "woah, overpowered" but in the context of class only, instead of class only gear that says, heres some basic stats...but the tag says class only.

If the classess gear or crossclass skills don't make up for all the extra skills a Job gives, its will hardly ever stack up. Thats not to say Classess need a version of the Job's skills. Classess need something exclusive to them enough that is either different, useful or unexpected that actually helps in a group.

Keep in mind, since we havent had a hands on with 2.0, and thus know its possabilities even less then we could, its hard to say what they could do for classess in 2.0. Drawing on 1.0, we all realize classess are lacking alot when standing next to any Job, sometimes even solo. In 2.0 there may be some options they can do for Classess that we haven't imagined yet, just because we don't know what we don't know.

That said just because we know this issues around classess in the current version, hardly says we need to scrap them totally. It could be a diamond in the roughest of rough.

[Fear]

I agree with the OP to, how the system is currently is ok but it doesn't allow for truely new jobs without tons of new classes & story content to go with them.

It would be nice of them to scrap classes altogether and just stick with Jobs, I would say copy FFXI's system but I don't like the idea of having subjobs on this game

[Mijin]

Dunno if i agree the class system is why it failed at launch. There seemed to be plenty wrong at Launch.

The class system was a really bad idea and a large part of why this game failed.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[Viritess]

Bold the LARGE too then. Large in context would covey the largest single issue of many. You really belive it was the biggest piece of fail pie? If you belive i was attempting to put words in your mouth, i apologize, if not, then read on!

Yay Semantics battle!

Also bonus points for addressing one sentance of nearly 7 full paragraphs. I'm not sure if your attempting to ignore my contrary opinion or belive 2 quoted sentences makes a valid discussion?

I am attempting to be constructive. You could also follow up with some counterpoints if your willing?

[Arkine]

1 Class 1 job:

1-You need to add a new class that nobody care about to add the job that people want.
Example: Something with a stupid name > unlocks Samurai. we just want the Samurai.

2-If the new class's job isn't implemented with it, it will be undesirable for groups until it gets a job.

1 Class and more than one job:
1-You can't add a job that changes how the original class function by much (DRK on GLA will have a bunch of shield and defensive skills they have no use for)

2-When you equip a crystal (GLA+Sword > DRK+Great Sword) what happens? do you still have your weapon on or does it get unequipped or what?

3- You start @ lv50 if you're already 50 in that class and you miss out on playing the new jobs.


You really can't win in either scenario.

Insta-Solution: Scrap classes, keep jobs and adjust subjobs.

[Mijin]

Bold the LARGE too then. Large in context would covey the largest single issue of many. You really belive it was the biggest piece of fail pie?

No, I don't think it was the largest issue. That's why I highlighted my quote for you. to me "large" meant, one of the many serious problems that plagued the game at launch. I would say it was probably one of the 5 biggest mistakes to not add a much more traditional job system, but not the very worst. I think the biggest thing that caused this game to fail was the horrible user interface.

Also bonus points for addressing one sentance of nearly 7 full paragraphs. I'm not sure if your attempting to ignore my contrary opinion or belive 2 quoted sentences makes a valid discussion?

Considering you misconstrued what I said I had figured you only glanced at my other post instead of actually reading it. That's why I didn't actually respond, but considering it turned out to just be a miscommunication I'll respond.

If it was the standard 1 class per character style game i'm not sure it would have kept my interest as it has.

Did you think that's what I was suggesting? I wouldn't want one Job per character either. I would be strongly apposed to that. What I would like to see is classes thrown out of the game, a job system with its own unique abilities that starts at level 1, and a subjob system identical to the way it worked in FFXI. If you're unfamiliar, the way it worked is you would have your main job set and you would be able to pick one subjob at a time. You're subjob would represent half of your main jobs level and you would get all of the skills of the subjob up to that level.

I belive what they need more then just trashing the class concept is to make classes less like lesser versions of Jobs and more of what the jobs lack, they have more of, but what the jobs do well, they have less of.

I personally would rather see many jobs added to the game to fill the rolls of what other jobs lack. I think it's dull to have two roles that are very similar, just with a few different skills. I would rather see something like, "Oh I need to cure and nuke for this raid so I'll go RDM" instead of, "Oh I need to cure and nuke for this fight, so I'll gimp myself and go THM."

The Armory system itself is one of the big draws to FF14 for me. If i want a new character for every class theres a plethera of games out there that do that.

Yeah I don't want a character for every class either... What mad you think I was saying that.

That said just because we know this issues around classess in the current version, hardly says we need to scrap them totally. It could be a diamond in the roughest of rough.

Your right they can find ways to work around the class system. It would be easier to scrap the class system, but they don't have to. My position on the matter is just that I think classes are conceptually dull, and that it's a weird system. I think if the class system was dropped we could have many more unique jobs. I would rather see 20 independent jobs in the game than a bunch of very similar jobs branching off of classes.

Edit: Sorry if this post has any spelling or grammar errors. I'm not going to proof read it because I'm going to bed.

[Viritess]

No, I don't think it was the largest issue. That's why I highlighted my quote for you. to me "large" meant, one of the many serious problems that plagued the game at launch. I would say it was probably one of the 5 biggest mistakes to not add a much more traditional job system, but not the very worst. I think the biggest thing that caused this game to fail was the horrible user interface.
Considering you misconstrued what I said I had figured you only glanced at my other post instead of actually reading it. That's why I didn't actually respond, but considering it turned out to just be a miscommunication I'll respond.

Ah then now i understand what you mean. Obviously i thought you meant otherwise. So my apologies.

Did you think that's what I was suggesting? I wouldn't want one Job per character either. I would be strongly apposed to that. What I would like to see is classes thrown out of the game, a job system with its own unique abilities that starts at level 1, and a subjob system identical to the way it worked in FFXI. If you're unfamiliar, the way it worked is you would have your main job set and you would be able to pick one subjob at a time. You're subjob would represent half of your main jobs level and you would get all of the skills of the subjob up to that level.

I'm not familiar with FF11, however Guild wars used a somewhat similar system of Main and Sub class, although fixed like the usual MMO standard. Though Jobs in the current form strike me as similar, though only slightly as they can pick cross class skills from only 2 jobs, granted we have no choice in which ones. Since i don't really know how it would feel to me personally i can't comment much on if FF11's system opposed to this one.

I personally would rather see many jobs added to the game to fill the rolls of what other jobs lack. I think it's dull to have two roles that are very similar, just with a few different skills. I would rather see something like, "Oh I need to cure and nuke for this raid so I'll go RDM" instead of, "Oh I need to cure and nuke for this fight, so I'll gimp myself and go THM."

This might be the crux between us. While currently going THM is gimp, or at the very least, extreamly situational i don't belive the class system itself is the reason why. I belive its a combination of Jobs adding much ontop of the current class, and the few changes to the class themselves. Not to mention it was only recently that they brought out class only anything.

If they further ignore classess and leave them in the current state, its hard to argue that they are borderline useless, but it depends on what they wish to do in the future with classess that will decide their worth, but i belive in theory, the idea is a sound one.

Yeah I don't want a character for every class either... What mad you think I was saying that.

Looking back i'm not too sure what struck me. Perhaps the multiple Gear sets, but i think i may have misread your intent on that subject. As having alot of Jobs would = gear. But with the Mannequin system in mind, my thought doesnt make sense (unless they would be so kind as to make class AND job mannequins)

Your right they can find ways to work around the class system. It would be easier to scrap the class system, but they don't have to. My position on the matter is just that I think classes are conceptually dull, and that it's a weird system. I think if the class system was dropped we could have many more unique jobs. I would rather see 20 independent jobs in the game than a bunch of very similar jobs branching off of classes.

Edit: Sorry if this post has any spelling or grammar errors. I'm not going to proof read it because I'm going to bed.

I'm not sure it would be easier, though it would be preferable to some. Suppose it would depend on what and how everythign is coded. While 20 different Jobs to level would be fun for some, and for many here now, 7 are done already, but in context of grouping, if we expect something to excel and something to be left out per dungeon i'm unsure how a large amount of completely seperate leveled jobs would be.

I suppose i don't mind some similarities for additional jobs. It kinda would depend on how many differences they are willing to put into additional jobs from a single class. We look at the limitations of now, and its hard not to, and project the inability for anything different to happen despite a completely new engine.

I think part of the issue with the current class system is that besides the Job addition, minor tweaks and the effects of entire system changes combat and skills. Classes are mostly as they were since launch. I wouldn't mind giving them a chance in 2.0 to try and re-invent classes in some way before giving up on the system entirely. I think we could have some time with a new and more maleable engine and see what they can do and if they want to do it.

But thank you for the discussion. Its much more fun this way.

[Dzian]

How unique can two jobs be if they share 75% of the same skill set? That's my big issue. In a sense, the job system would regress back to what we had before, lack of identitym instead of adding class uniqueness as intended

This is kind of my point. The problem originally was all the classes were the same there are/were certain skills from every class that every other class used.
Even more so before they made some of the skills require a specific weapon. Your lancers had invigorate, keen flurry, second wind your marauders had the same and your archers and your gladiators and your pugilists too.

This ultimately is why the jobs were introduced. To try and make them all unique / different