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  1. #191
    Player
    Hyrist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Next to a dead Snurble.
    Posts
    1,969
    Character
    Lin Celistine
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Riaayo View Post
    The issue is that some of the Job's weapons require Materia that is more expensive than the other Job's, and that is imbalanced.
    This is merely due to the fact that some jobs share the same materia for their required melds. You can bypass this entirely by acquiring the materia through spirit binding, which would require no more time than getting melds for any other weapon. The fact that the melds are more expensive are only an additional barrier to those who only wish to buy their materia or weapon straight out, and a clear bypass is readily present.

    No matter what, Relics are going to require time. Time some players simply will not have. If anything I would encourage SE to create job-specific alternatives that are more in line with AF weapons from FFXI for those concerned for a 'complete' appearance.

    But as far as the investment required to finish Relics, my statements on the first page still stand.

    Issues regarding Random Number Generator is an entirely different conversation, and many of us do not like Speed Runs nor Random drops verses a steady progression system.
    (1)

  2. #192
    Player
    NefGP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    632
    Character
    Dante Goldenpaws
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Byakko View Post
    Hmmm well I wouldn't know about that I never had any trouble with botters farming sky NM, but that is certainly a problem if it was happening. I could maybe see 1 hour kirin fights if a group had no idea what they were doing the first few times, but with a little practice it shouldn't take near that long. What do you expect from a mob that dropped one of the best pieces in the game? Was there any endgame content in XI that wasn't too hard for you?
    You obviously didn't play XI from launch like I did, so I don't blame you for not knowing just how God awful many aspects of the game used to be. Zilart's endgame was just badly designed all around, sky was only the tip of the iceberg. Even after they fixed Ullikimi, farming the Diorites or w/e it was called was just un-freaking-bearable. Sometimes you'd get lucky and get a few within an hour, and then we'd go entire nights without getting even one which as you might expect, left a bitter taste in everyone's mouths.

    But that's all Tanaka's brand of sadism, which is largely absent from this game now thanks to Yoshi P. I just don't want to see it ever come back. There are better ways of making something a legitimate and engaging challenge without simply turning everything into a luck-based grind that leaves you feeling more like you're working a 2nd job instead of playing a game.


    EDIT: Speaking of materia, wasn't Yoshi supposed to give us a list what what items make which materia? And I'll take it a step further by saying HQ items, when converted, should always give either the maximum value, or near max.

    For example if the parameters are 6~10 STR, then an HQ version when converted should give no less than 8 with a good chance of 10 and a very high chance of 9. As it stands, you can still get bottom-tier materia out of HQ items and to me that's just all kinds of wrong.
    (0)
    Last edited by NefGP; 07-27-2012 at 10:57 AM.

  3. #193
    Player
    Viritess's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    499
    Character
    Viritess Vonschalt
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    This is merely due to the fact that some jobs share the same materia for their required melds. You can bypass this entirely by acquiring the materia through spirit binding, which would require no more time than getting melds for any other weapon. The fact that the melds are more expensive are only an additional barrier to those who only wish to buy their materia or weapon straight out, and a clear bypass is readily present.

    No matter what, Relics are going to require time. Time some players simply will not have. If anything I would encourage SE to create job-specific alternatives that are more in line with AF weapons from FFXI for those concerned for a 'complete' appearance.

    But as far as the investment required to finish Relics, my statements on the first page still stand.

    Issues regarding Random Number Generator is an entirely different conversation, and many of us do not like Speed Runs nor Random drops verses a steady progression system.
    The unfortunate side effect of SB items is that meany of the other Materia. the ones you don't need for relic weapons, are in such supply that any market for them is unfortunately gone. It would have been i think a worthy goal to use any tier 4 materia that either had similar stats, or that job's Primary and secondary stat to give people more leeway in how many materia they need to create vs sucsess/explosion of the Class weapons.

    If for relic we had a choice of 3-5 different Tier 4 materia. i think we wouldn't have to see such a flooded market for every other materia. Thus allowing a few more materia to retain some value.

    What the current system has done is strip any value from many other materias and funnel all that value to certain ones. and place a large percent of that new value on the 1 materia used for 2 relics. And i find that a shame.

    (Some fault lies on the "simplistic" stating for jobs as it is. rendering many materia borderline useless. But thats another thread entirely.)
    (0)

  4. #194
    Player

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by NefGP View Post
    You obviously didn't play XI from launch like I did, so I don't blame you for not knowing just how God awful many aspects of the game used to be. Zilart's endgame was just badly designed all around, sky was only the tip of the iceberg. Even after they fixed Ullikimi, farming the Diorites or w/e it was called was just un-freaking-bearable. Sometimes you'd get lucky and get a few within an hour, and then we'd go entire nights without getting even one which as you might expect, left a bitter taste in everyone's mouths.

    But that's all Tanaka's brand of sadism, which is largely absent from this game now thanks to Yoshi P. I just don't want to see it ever come back. There are better ways of making something a legitimate and engaging challenge without simply turning everything into a luck-based grind that leaves you feeling more like you're working a 2nd job instead of playing a game.


    EDIT: Speaking of materia, wasn't Yoshi supposed to give us a list what what items make which materia? And I'll take it a step further by saying HQ items, when converted, should always give either the maximum value, or near max.

    For example if the parameters are 6~10 STR, then an HQ version when converted should give no less than 8 with a good chance of 10 and a very high chance of 9. As it stands, you can still get bottom-tier materia out of HQ items and to me that's just all kinds of wrong.
    Hmm no I was doing sky at about the same time, but I don't remember these issues being as bad as you describe. Actually I found it to be just the opposite. In 04 sky was kind of deserted because there weren't a ton of NAs doing gods yet, but as time went on there was alot more competition and the RMT showed up there later. It must not have been as bad where I was. I certainly remember being frustrated with HNM botting, but not Ulli,despot, farming water etc.
    (0)
    Last edited by Byakko; 07-27-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  5. #195
    Player
    Platinumstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    748
    Character
    Chardut Mazzma
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 100
    I really hate how relics have been approached from difficulty level. You do hamlet over and over.. never improving in skill getting your 60 and 70k victories.

    No drops.

    At least I can use the 15 minute break for productivity... It's just not in a realm of "difficulty" that I would expect, and unfortunately tends towards boredom and mindless grinding. My experience with it hasn't been enjoyable.
    (0)

  6. #196
    Player
    Quatre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    234
    Character
    Lyndel Qa'tre
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrist View Post
    This is merely due to the fact that some jobs share the same materia for their required melds. You can bypass this entirely by acquiring the materia through spirit binding, which would require no more time than getting melds for any other weapon. The fact that the melds are more expensive are only an additional barrier to those who only wish to buy their materia or weapon straight out, and a clear bypass is readily present.

    No matter what, Relics are going to require time. Time some players simply will not have. If anything I would encourage SE to create job-specific alternatives that are more in line with AF weapons from FFXI for those concerned for a 'complete' appearance.

    But as far as the investment required to finish Relics, my statements on the first page still stand.

    Issues regarding Random Number Generator is an entirely different conversation, and many of us do not like Speed Runs nor Random drops verses a steady progression system.

    Great point. Except Some materia (Heavens' Eye IV) Is much more rare.
    (1)

  7. #197
    Player
    NefGP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    632
    Character
    Dante Goldenpaws
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Platinumstorm View Post
    I really hate how relics have been approached from difficulty level. You do hamlet over and over.. never improving in skill getting your 60 and 70k victories.

    No drops.

    At least I can use the 15 minute break for productivity... It's just not in a realm of "difficulty" that I would expect, and unfortunately tends towards boredom and mindless grinding. My experience with it hasn't been enjoyable.
    This is precisely the point I was making. You don't keep people interested in a game by making them repeat the same tired, flawed mechanics/events over and over until they finally get lucky - you have to come up with content that is genuinely challenging and engaging. Nyzul Isle & Assault were very good examples of this, Salvage to a lesser degree (mainly because of the horrid drop rates).

    And again, I cite Empyrean Weapons - up until the 95 update (which is when I threw in the towel because Tanaka was back in charge and decided to bring back his brand of bs in with the 1000+ plates from Voidwatch) Empyrean Weapons were about as close to an ideal challenge as you could get.

    A little grindy, but nothing strenuous and most people could do it together in the early stages. In the later stages you had to make sacrifices, but this was offset somewhat by people needing zone boss clears, AF3+2 and other misc. items (I will forever hate Carabosse with the fiery passion of 1000 suns however. I earned that Masamune damn it!)
    (0)

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