Just remove leveling altogether if it's such a hindrance.

[Soukyuu]

Let's just bring back physical levels and get rid of all other levels and just quest all skills.
Wipe at 2.0 and start over. Any changes to what we have now means wipe.

I'm not sure why you quoted my post, but PL is not something that requires a wipe. All it requires is SE changing claim/exp mechanics.

[Dragon]

I've answered all I can from a development standpoint, the rest just seems to be semantics and subjective assessment. If you went through a hierarchical tutorial that wasn't leveling, it'd just be leveling with a different name attached to it; if it weren't hierarchical (aka leveling), then you'd be throwing a horizontally fleshed out character to someone in order to play devil's advocate about the necessity of a long vertical grind, which has nothing to do with this discussion.

Learning one's job can be a simple diagram to a few fights. However, I mentioned leveling in a specified grindful context...

Isn't that getting a little ethereal? Perhaps you're meaning to convey a bigger message than your words read; I might just be missing some context. Overall, though, I don't see what else there is for me to answer aside from just musing philosophy.

While it does have a bigger meaning that you're beginning to understand, I'm specifically targeting those that believe that leveling is a hindrance.

[AsterBarnivere]

HOW DARE GAMES HAVE LEVELS!? THIS KILLS MY IMMERSION!! *sarcasm*

[Dragon]

HOW DARE GAMES HAVE LEVELS!? THIS KILLS MY IMMERSION!! *sarcasm*

Lol, that was cute.

[Jynx]

I feel my biggest issue is that leveling or no, there is little feel of progression within the game.

You hit 50 you grind for gear, because it's the only thing the game offers that makes you feel like your making progress. The game needs more ways to build your character (Not just stat wise) This is also one of the reasons in the early days of XIV I was very adamant about some sort of collectable system wether it be a card game or bestiary.

We need something to occupy our time and help our characters grow than just speed running CC/AV.

[Shurrikhan]

Remember, I'm asking those that view leveling as a hindrance. In reality, any form of advancement is another manner of leveling. So really, are you are stuck with are raids and that kind of stuff, but if you believe that is where the game starts, why would you care about that being all there is to it to begin with?

People like myself that have asked for longer leveling experiences and that actually believe the game starts when you create your first character as a game is meant to have no problem with endgame or other manners of advancement - normally we don't find any of it useless, even if there are times we don't care for such content in/of itself. So your question is something you should be asking "yourself" - that is to say, that's why I'm asking in the first place why we don't just have it removed if we're to view it as a hindrance, as something useless, that we're to view the game only as starting at the cap.

Sorry, I've been partly misunderstanding your posts, even if not by much. I understood that the question was rhetorical, but honestly it does have merit to a point--not in the removal of leveling, but in what other forms of leveling could be done less pointlessly--and was thus confused. I did not read your last thread, and I should have. I apologize.

All I can say is that enjoy the pairing of world exploration and gradual learning and experimentation more than fighting my way through dungeons from the start. I don't want to be stuck in end-game from the start of the game, simply because I enjoy the other play-style more. I'd rather think more about how to flesh out that playstyle than consider cutting the fat off the burger.

I have no doubt that a system can be made that would bring all that was had during leveling up to the end-game, or at least most.

[Dragon]

Sorry, I've been partly misunderstanding your posts, even if not by much. I understood that the question was rhetorical, but honestly it does have merit to a point--not in the removal of leveling, but in what other forms of leveling could be done less pointlessly--and was thus confused. I did not read your last thread, and I should have. I apologize.

No prob, I had a certain feeling that you were misunderstanding me.

All I can say is that enjoy the pairing of world exploration and gradual learning and experimentation more than fighting my way through dungeons from the start. I don't want to be stuck in end-game from the start of the game, simply because I enjoy the other play-style more. I'd rather think more about how to flesh out that playstyle than consider cutting the fat off the burger.

I have no doubt that a system can be made that would bring all that was had during leveling up to the end-game, or at least most.

Certainly agreed.

Psst... I wasn't the one that created the other two recently created threads about leveling/EXP.

[Shurrikhan]

I feel my biggest issue is that leveling or no, there is little feel of progression within the game.

You hit 50 you grind for gear, because it's the only thing the game offers that makes you feel like your making progress. The game needs more ways to build your character (Not just stat wise) This is also one of the reasons in the early days of XIV I was very adamant about some sort of collectable system wether it be a card game or bestiary.

We need something to occupy our time and help our characters grow than just speed running CC/AV.

Just a running tab or random ideas...

Collectibles:
Cards
Books
Bestiary
Recipe Logbooks
NPC Relationships
Just about anything that can be learned can be recorded

Alternate Leveling:
Traits-leveling
Skill-leveling
Gear-leveling

Alternate Timesinks:
More mobs with better AI
Hunting grounds according to unique mob behavior
Making your own leves
OR give leves a set of characteristics, one or more of which can be carried over or stacked upon future leves (similar to above)
Elemental passage through the regions changes distribution and even location of gathering nodes
OR make gathering more complex

Different Ways to Test One's Mettle:
Mobs your level that take much longer to kill, mini-bosses
Leves that are well programmed and challenging; new types and criteria with scoreboard
Summoning your own fights (obviously restricted)

Variations:
Slightly different teleportation system?
Recast times reformed?
Combo system changed?
^ All that to basically make us feel like we're really moving through, intensely fighting in, and having choices and experimentation in our growth.

[Shurrikhan]

No prob, I had a certain feeling that you were misunderstanding me.



Certainly agreed.

Psst... I wasn't the one that created the other two recently created threads about leveling/EXP.

Typo. I meant "threads you posted in". :P

[Dragon]

Typo. I meant "threads you posted in". :P

It's cool, and I do think you just put something that could work quite well. I especially would like to see more AI in enemy mobs again.