What can SE learn from Bioware's failing Star Wars MMO?

[Antipika]

Well, I haven't met a person yet that truly enjoys level grinding. It's accepted by most MMORPG veterans that "the real game begins at the level cap", so many people rush to get there as quickly as possible.

You certainly didn't play SWTOR then, the best part is the leveling and people left mostly because of the unbalanced endgame once Level 50 is reached. The game is heavily story driven and your journey from 1 to 50 is painless, as you don't really feel the grind (like you do on XIV, especially past level 30 where most of people are doing Raptor > Natalan grind fest).

Look, ever since Yoshi publically stated that Star Wars's problem was launching the game without enough content (which, while true, it still had more content at launch by far than XIV originally did),

SWTOR 1.0 had more content than XIV 1.22b have and will have more than XIV 1.23 unless SE release a super huge patch. But drop rate aren't low, so players went through the content faster.

Drop rate in high level 4-mans dungeons in SWTOR is 100%. Guaranteed drop on final boss and it's useable for 1 of the 4 class group of the game, meaning that if your party is made of 4 players from 4 different class group, there won't be any competition at /rolling (unlike XIV where on top of having a shit drop rate, lot of people are 7/7 jobs and you have to fight for whatever drops with at least 2 or 3 players which lower the chance to get your loot).

You can attempt a specific dungeon once every 24 hour max, but nothing prevent you to run 4 different dungeons a day. Meaning that in average, you get one guaranteed drop per day when you start gearing up. The pace will slow down a bit when you will only need 1 or 2 piece of armor (meaning that you will only do runs for the 1-2 dungeons you need).

Oh yeah, on top of armor drop, you get tokens. And you can use them to acquire piece of armor directly from NPC. It would take long to have enough token to buy Tier 2 equipment, roughly 1 month, still. That's enough to buy that very last piece of armor set you were missing.

I got my full Tier 2 set in about a month. Then T3 (Raid) was barely an improvement over T2, so why even bother (and 8-mans was dropping the same thing as 16-mans)? Nothing was even balanced in Raid yet, so I did like many, I left...

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The biggest mistake of Bioware was to listen to the community when it came to fixing the game. Stupid things that didn't require any fix were changed, while important things were overlooked.

It sounds like EN forums sometime with "PETITION FOR [...]" everywhere. Players think that because they pay $12 a month they are entitled to give orders to game designers. I am glad sometime SE do their own things, even if the community is complaining. While some complaints are off course legitimate, it doesn't mean that they should always be taken in consideration.

Typical example that comes in mind are the low drop rate. If XIV had SWTOR like drop rate, we wouldn't even be here anymore to talk, because we would all have left.

(In b4 : "B.. But! I don't play for the drops! I play for fun!!". That's not true for most of players, you don't do Primals because they're fun after 50 wins, but because you want your weapon. Same with dungeons. Same with just anything...)

I hope 2.0 will remain the way SE wants it to be and not the way some minority on forums wants it to be.

[Eekiki]

You certainly didn't play SWTOR then

As a matter of fact, I did play SWTOR. My account is still active, even, since I made the mistake of plunking down money for a 6-month subscription. I stopped playing it for exactly the reason you mention. The best part of it is the level grind.

There is another game that has a very well designed level grind, but it isn't an MMORPG so it doesn't get considered, even though it plays like an MMO: Xenoblade Chronicles. Even though the game is very linear, the main scenario quests and the hundreds of sidequests are designed in such a way that you will fully explore the game's world. It's great.

XIV comes close to this, but it misses the mark because the main scenario quests were designed to be completable by DoH/DoL classes, so you can finish them without actually doing anything (thus missing a fine opportunity for EXP gains from combat situations). There also aren't enough of them.

What Asiaine said about level grinding in Zilart-era XI is also true, but for XIV to match that magic it needs to make forming a PT a lot easier.

[Antipika]

As a matter of fact, I did play SWTOR. My account is still active, even, since I made the mistake of plunking down money for a 6-month subscription. I stopped playing it for exactly the reason you mention. The best part of it is the level grind.

My bad then, but why your answer make it sound the other way ? (I also made the mistake of paying 3 months and playing only ~2 months (+30 days free))

[Duelle]

You certainly didn't play SWTOR then, the best part is the leveling and people left mostly because of the unbalanced endgame once Level 50 is reached. The game is heavily story driven and your journey from 1 to 50 is painless, as you don't really feel the grind (like you do on XIV, especially past level 30 where most of people are doing Raptor > Natalan grind fest).

Thats because TOR has a story with which to buffer the time it takes to level a character. Alderaan => Hoth is pretty involved, and you get the exp as you go, which is never a bad thing. You don't really feel the grind because you're probably wanting to see how the story ends.

Typical example that comes in mind are the low drop rate. If XIV had SWTOR like drop rate, we wouldn't even be here anymore to talk, because we would all have left.

You can have a 100% drop rate, but it requires giving bosses loot pools and ensuring you have plenty of content to spread it about. I'm not sure whether you're attempting to justify the ridiculous drop rates so far, though I'm of the mind they're there because the game lacks content and thus needs this to elongate its relevancy.

[Viritess]

Thats because TOR has a story with which to buffer the time it takes to level a character. Alderaan => Hoth is pretty involved, and you get the exp as you go, which is never a bad thing. You don't really feel the grind because you're probably wanting to see how the story ends.

You can have a 100% drop rate, but it requires giving bosses loot pools and ensuring you have plenty of content to spread it about. I'm not sure whether you're attempting to justify the ridiculous drop rates so far, though I'm of the mind they're there because the game lacks content and thus needs this to elongate its relevancy.

I like your points here. Grind only feels like a grind when theres nothing to distract you from it. On that point, SW:Tor did well. The story was good enough to move you through it and level you without an obviously repetitive action. However it failed to deliver you any real reasons to group up either.

Flashpoints we're so passable that often you found very few to do them with. And the Grouping tool was lackluster and in some ways would force you to sit in a station to even find the group. Theres no community if not ones around to do things with. But Grouping tools and the community breaking "Discussion" can be saved for another thread.

The second point being Loot pools as they stand in so many games now are filled by Top end items then strait to crap. Look at primals. Theres the weapons you want, then DM that saps your soul. One could easily ease such situations with a higher drop rate, but a better array of mid grade items. Maybe the same as something else but with a different skin. Or +5 and +4 of a similar item, but the stats reversed.

If a loot "pool" is more then a shot glass it really does help keep the highs and lows people feel when they win more baseline.

[Duelle]

The second point being Loot pools as they stand in so many games now are filled by Top end items then strait to crap. Look at primals. Theres the weapons you want, then DM that saps your soul. One could easily ease such situations with a higher drop rate, but a better array of mid grade items. Maybe the same as something else but with a different skin. Or +5 and +4 of a similar item, but the stats reversed.

If a loot "pool" is more then a shot glass it really does help keep the highs and lows people feel when they win more baseline.

Well, the way I would design Garuda's lootpool for example, would be as follows (this is assuming Garuda is on a 7-day lockout timer like raid bosses in WoW are, and as such you need 10 totems to trade for a weapon):

15% chance of getting a weapon
80-95% chance of getting one from the following list of items:

Vembraces of the Gales (+Shield Block rating, +STR, +VIT, +DEX)
Cuisses of the Vortex (+Attack, +STR, +Parry rating, +Accuracy)
Wind Rider's Belt (+Accuracy, +AGI, +INT)
Emerald Feathered Boots (+INT, +M.Acc, Grants Refresh Effect)

100% chance of getting 4-7 pieces of Dark Matter
100% chance of getting one totem

This way at least when not getting a weapon your group still gets something for their troubles and still progresses in a matter of speaking.