Yoshida-san: Please Give Us a BETTER System for Relics and Future 2.0 Challenges!

[Onizuka]

* Please STOP relying on the "Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rate" to use as a Time Sink to keep the players busy.

[...]

Yoshida-san, this is essentially just "Rolling the Dice / Gambling / Playing the Lottery." It emphasizes REPETITION and DUMB LUCK to stretch out content.

[...]

But using Random Number Generator / Low Drop Rates to make things last longer *doesn't* make the content or rewards "difficult." It's simply the easiest, most mind-numbing way to stretch out content.

How about *rewarding* players for their *effort* and *skill* instead?

[...]

And note that we're *NOT* asking for everything to be "easy" or "given to us fast." Long Term Goals are OK (and I love them)! But we need to have Rewards Systems that actually reward Player Skill and Effort and provides Good Challenge, instead of just making us SPAM / Throw Ourselves at a certain task over and over and hoping for a Blind Luck Dice Roll.

Thank you, Kiara, for finding the time, patience and energy to write this new post on the “Randomness/Spamming Content” matter.

I myself had already opened a thread on this, and now that everything got confirmed and is even worse than we could imagine, looking at those 300+ Likes, I'm glad that now other adventurers are seeing what this type of content really is.

I, for one, would really like to get my hands on the Monk weapon, shaped like a Great Coeurl (!)... but after discovering how ridiculous that quest is, mainly based on the Random Luck/Rolling the Dice factor, I simply let it go for the time being.

On the other hand, I'm a true Disciple of the Land and I cannot let go those ultra-cool-looking hats... and to give an idea of how badly conceived is the drop system, I've almost completed a total of 100 Hamlet Defense and I've yet to see a sign of those hats. Almost 100 Hamlets and not a single drop yet. It must be something like 1%...

And so I wonder why creating such a reward system. After all this time they finally release some Class-specific equipments for us gatherers, and what do they do? They place them as a Random Reward with an ridicolously low chance to obtain them, only based on luck.

Why, as a gatherer, I cannot truly earn those hats?

Let me swing my pickaxe in Coerthas 10.000 times, if needed.

Let me reach some extremely dangerous places, like speaking with the NPCs in Lasthold (I tie Exploration a lot with my Disciples of the Land Classes).

Let me gather 99 HQ Logs, Minerals or Fishes of the hardest type.

Just some ideas that would provide at least a bit of challenge and commitment, rather than just spamming the same content over and over just praying for Lady Luck.


What the devs should know is that not everyone has the gathering Classes leveled only for monetary purpose. There're certain adventurers who actually liked leveling them up and still enjoy playing them.
Why can't we have e concrete system to truly earn the finally released Class-specific equipments for Disciples of the Land?

These bad design choices of the Random/Luck Factor that arrived with the Speed Runs/AoE Feast of the instanced raids are a huge flaw.
The sooner the devs understand it and fix it, the better for most of the adventurers that on this very moment are still spamming those contents, with the same Classes and same strategy every time, not having fun in doing it, and just for a slim chance to get a drop.

[Delmontyb]

I saw this, but I just dont get it, we have Token systems in game now (Primals) with Garuda being the best one. Yet some how he didnt apply the same thing to the relic even though he says he wants to apply that type of stuff in 2.0, dont get it, seems like he is saying what we'd like to hear.

But what does it matter, people will luck out and get relics all over by 2.0 and it be another meaningless non-rare weapon and those who tried over and over will be screwed over as usual until they eventually luck out.

You assume that there is all kinds of content and systems for 1.0, when we already know that 1.0 is hard to develop for, and create for, heck, look how long it took them to pull 1.0 around.

As a developer, I myself understand this... Do we focus more resources to something we are turning off in 4-6 months, or do we focus our efforts on new systems, and contents.

The basic idea for development is developing a strong "Core" to the game, from there, if you've done your job it becomes easy to expand off of that core. (I recently developed some software and version 1.0 was hard to expand, so we also did a 2.0 change, and from that we re-built the app to be more flexible and expandable, and now it's easy to add new features etc).

So from the current relic system, there are two options.
1. This system isn't perfect, so let's delay it until 2.0 - people will complain.
2. This system is tedious but it works and it will give players something to do until 2.0 - people will complain.

Yoshi-P has said multiple times that his effort and focus is on 2.0, and he will come back from patch to patch and direct 1.0, but 1.0 still has the "ghost of Tanaka" and the post said.

Personally, and IMO, his reference to a "token" type system refers to what people have called "karma" where you do the events, but the drop stays low, however, the more you do it the greater the chances of the drop.

While we don't have 2.0 to compare and contrast the development styles of Yoshi-P and Tanaka, I see one of two things happening come 2.0.

1. 2.0 will be more of the same with RNG, and whatnot...
2. Yoshi-P will deliver a game that will surprise a lot of people.

Ether way, he's doomed by the forums.

You can't make everyone happy.

[viion]

You assume that there is all kinds of content and systems for 1.0, when we already know that 1.0 is hard to develop for, and create for, heck, look how long it took them to pull 1.0 around.

Ummm the token system exists already.... Primals use it. I dont assume that its there, IT IS THERE, Fact.

I also dont think you read the interview where he said they would use more of this stuff, as well as Need/Greed and then more different systems, so why you say they will be more random? I know N/G is random in some sense but you get a much higher chance as items are not forced into someone inventory or pool.

Also dont pull this "as a developer myself" crap lolol

[Doho]

Ummm the token system exists already.... Primals use it. I dont assume that its there, IT IS THERE, Fact.

Actually, the only proper token system in place right now would be Garuda, no? Seeing as Kupo Nut Charms/Inferno Totems can be as random/rare as the weapons themselves. Why they haven't made them 100% by now is beyond me.

[Enfarious]

...
they already stated that relics are long-term goal/achievements. read: LONG-TERM! its not something to be done in a week!

Long term should mean long term, not randomly decided amount of time based on how lucky you are or aren't on any given day.

You assume that there is all kinds of content and systems for 1.0, when we already know that 1.0 is hard to develop for, and create for, heck, look how long it took them to pull 1.0 around.
...
You can't make everyone happy.

The system is present to do what everyone here is talking about. Everyone gets their own chest(primals, new mats from dungeons). Drop rate adjustments, which they obviously set. Tokens 100% from that individual chest, Garuda. None of these are "new" to this game, they just weren't implemented for these weapons. Rather than offer up gauranteed progress with a win they gave us "Step right up step right up and try your luck." Wait that's carnival stuff, "Slot machine" progress, you win you pull the lever maybe you get something.

You can make everyone not pissed. While they may not be happy they will not be disappointed by the blatant flaw in a system.

Actually, the only proper token system in place right now would be Garuda, no? Seeing as Kupo Nut Charms/Inferno Totems can be as random/rare as the weapons themselves. Why they haven't made them 100% by now is beyond me.

Yeah what is that about. I'd have 9 Ifrit weapons by now if he actually dropped totems, well dropped them regularly.

[Libby9]

Boohoo, I've done 5 hamlet runs in each area and still haven't gotten my relic in the first week. I mean, everyone should be able to get one; why not just hand them out at easter events?

[viion]

Actually, the only proper token system in place right now would be Garuda, no? Seeing as Kupo Nut Charms/Inferno Totems can be as random/rare as the weapons themselves. Why they haven't made them 100% by now is beyond me.

Well it is still a token system.

Ignoring Drop rate, you still :
1. collect something up,
2. hand in and pick an item of your choice.

That is the basis of a token system, and it is implemented, the "drop-rate" is not tied to the system as a whole.

And yeh I agree, they should of made Ifrit/Moogle 40 and made it 100% for 2 XD, would make things so much less of a grind/chore fest.

[Suneater]

OP brings up some great ideas for non-random advancement. I only hope that the poorly put together relic weapon system we have right now is a temporary placeholder until 2.0. Hopefully SE reads this because I want to be as far away from our current 1% drop rate endgame as possible when 2.0 hits.

[Deku]

Yeah, people are way too whiney/crybaby if they don't get what they want exactly when they want it.

I played FFXI for almost 10 or so years... this game as I see it now is easy mode.

Wait for 2.0, until then don't complain because you are just kicking a dead man.

Good things will come to those who wait... and all that.

[Velhart]

I'm actually really sick of the RNG system. It really disappoints me to see that developers took absolutely no feedback from players regarding the RNG system. Why exactly was the relic weapon quest delayed again? To figure out more ways to depress us?

I do find your answer here funny that we will have a better system in 2.0. Saying we will have the G/N/P system and all, which is great to that. Unfortunately, I am not playing 2.0 right now, I am playing 1.22b. Every time people bring this up, you give us nothing but vague answers to what we want to know.

Let me ask these questions SE, and I would love to hear you justify this...

Why does someone who did the dungeons half as much as me have a full set of Darklight (almost two sets), and I only have a pair of damn gloves? How is it fair that all the effort and time I wasted in your buggy dungeons for almost nothing? Please don't tell me "Just keep doing it!". No, just no. I have successfully beaten CC/AV together 450+ times. That is over 449 times I have been disappointed SE, 449 times. I have not even seen the pieces I want drop. Never even had an opportunity to have someone out lot me on them.

On Ifrit, I had beaten him over 200 times. Never got my Ifrit Blade. Look to the previous paragraph, same way I felt when I did this.

What upsets me the most is you actually put a good system in Garuda where you had tokens go towards a certain goal. Why in the hell was this not implemented into the relic weapons quest? I was starting to think the team was starting to finally get the picture. Apparently not.

While Hamlet Defense seals are not the worst thing in the world to get, it still faults itself by not dropping in appropriate places. If a team get 60k+ points, it should be guaranteed a seal. It upsets me we put the hard work in to get 60k+ and all we have to show for it is a head piece that everyone and their mother now owns.

I currently have a Mailbreaker in my inventory right now. Deciding to not attempt to double meld it until I get all nine of my seals, hoping the Acc+ materia drops in price by the time I get them. I am just scared I am going to be screwed over by the RNG system once again to double meld this. I just have a feeling I am going to get screwed over on this and go through 10 of them before I actually succeed.

And then we fall into the RNG system again for the six items you need from Miser and Chimera, which people are already confirming is an extremely crappy drop rate. I really feel like I am just being heavily played at this point.

How come other games made successful and hard methods to getting legendary weapons while playing it at fair game? Hell, your previous game, FFXI, was able to pull this off also. How long SE till you realize we don't want the RNG system at all? No one wants it, and the only people who do want it are people who are actually lucky or people who don't understand the concept of hard work and effort.

You can stop calling this a theme park, it is only a casino. At a theme park, you get in line, it is a long line, but you know if you know you are guaranteed to get on that ride eventually. At a casino, you either come out with something, or you don't.

Here is my request. I want a fair progression system for 1.xx, I do not want to wait for 2.0 for this. You need to make the next set of relic quests not based around this awful system. You need to make it difficult and fair that bases itself off small progression meeting a bigger goal. I don't want to pull a lever and hope for the best. It is just wrong and there is absolutely no way to justify this system, absolutely none.

I want to hear a direct and detailed response on why the team feels it is necessary that we have to deal with this system. Why they feel that they can't at least put in a token system for dungeons and other primals. I really want to hear a response. So reps, if you see this, and actually care, please urge SE to come out and give a better and more detailed answer to this than what vague statements you have been giving us.

Sorry long post. Here is a tl;dr version. >_>