Best bow for ARC/BRD

[Spider-Dan]

It's not whether you beat others using ifrits bow while you use crab bow. That's not a controlled test and is irrelevant as it brings player skill differences into question, which is a variable you cannot control.

Once more: I'm still waiting on controlled tests comparing Garuda's and Ifrit's.

Also in XIV TP generation is ultimately the same regardless of DPS or attack delay. Lower delay hits generate less TP and higher delay hits generate more TP, and yes it is very linear meaning that as far as TP is concerned delay is irrelevant.

In XI, lower delay hits generate less TP and higher delay hits generate more TP. The curve is not as linear as XIV, but as I just explained, even though a 499TP/hit weapon and a 500TP/hit weapon are superficially identical in TP/time, the 500TP/hit weapon has a huge advantage in WS/time. This is still true, regardless of the flatness of the TP/time curve.

A higher DPS weapon almost always being superior is perfectly fine so long as they don't throw DPS values of weapons all over the place for same level weapons.

Please explain why it's "perfectly fine" for higher DPS weapons to be clearly superior, but bad and wrong for higher DMG weapons to be clearly superior.

The point that I'm getting at is that in the current system, a low DPS (but high DMG) weapon is practically useless. In the old system (where WS damage is based on DMG), a high DPS (but low DMG) weapon is still probably not going to be as good as a high DMG weapon... but it will still have a wider variety of situational uses than a low DPS weapon does in this system.

If WS damage was based on the Damage stat higher Damage would be the superior choice for every scenario. Period. No choice at all.

False. I already gave you already existing scenarios in this game where that was not true (melees vs. Ifrit), as well as giving you other possible scenarios in which that would not be true (ones like those that occurred in XI).

Lower damage weapon would always translate to lower numbers on the parse at the end. WS are not kept in check by anything other than TP generation and their own cooldowns, neither of which are based on DPS or delay. So higher damage would always win, which again offers less flexibility than higher DPS always winning.

I'm sorry, you're just wrong. I've offered historical examples (in a TP/weaponskill-based game, like this one) that show exactly how and why you are wrong, but it just doesn't seem like you get it.

Under the old system, higher autoattack output (read: high DPS) can legitimately outdamage higher WS output (read: high DMG) when the ratio of AA damage:WS damage for a given job/fight skews towards AA. However, in the current system, higher autoattack output necessarily means higher WS output. The competition is rigged.

[Dzian]

Please explain why it's "perfectly fine" for higher DPS weapons to be clearly superior, but bad and wrong for higher DMG weapons to be clearly superior.

A few points you seem to miss.
It is perfectly possible for the highest base damage weapon and highest dps weapon to be the very same weapon. which kind of invalidates your point a little bit. while at present it tends not to be the case with the present selection but it is totally possible for them to be the very same. as for a clearly superior weapon i disagree.

With experience between my friends and what ive read of noctis's posts the better weapon between ifrits . garudas seems to be heavily impacted on play style. in the parses and things i refer to in my earlier post i with my ifrits bow consistently would deal 7-8k more damage at the end of the fight than people using garudas. those same ppl using ifrits would close that gap substantially.as for my parses for the most part i never bothered saving them because although a parse does tell you how much dmage you do it doesnt tell you who was using what weapon.

Where noctis states his performance increases using a garudas bow leads me to believe his style of playing bard is different to others and in this style his spine may be superior. this i find truly interesting. though i have ever parsed against noctis to compare results it truly seems to suggest there are in fact multiple ways in which to play a job effectively and in this case there really is no clearly superior weapon and that in my opinion is exactly how it should be. it suggest a true choice in weapons where there is no clearly superior option.

In XI, lower delay hits generate less TP and higher delay hits generate more TP. The curve is not as linear as XIV, but as I just explained, even though a 499TP/hit weapon and a 500TP/hit weapon are superficially identical in TP/time, the 500TP/hit weapon has a huge advantage in WS/time. This is still true, regardless of the flatness of the TP/time curve..

one other point here is that tp in this game is cumulative and a very different system than it was in xi. in xi for example if you earnt 18tp a hit then it took you 6 hits to get 100% the trouble here is that 6x 18 = 108tp and thus when you pop your ws the 8 tp was lost. in xiv however its less impactfull because tp is cumulative and carries. if i earn 450 tp per shot for example then sure it takes 3 shots to break 1000 but when i pop a ws the extra 350 tp stays and thus in 2 shots i again have 1250 tp so can again ws. so whether or not your bow generats 450 tp a shot or 500 doesnt have quite the impact over time that you seem to think it does.

[NoctisUmbra]

A few points you seem to miss.
It is perfectly possible for the highest base damage weapon and highest dps weapon to be the very same weapon. which kind of invalidates your point a little bit. while at present it tends not to be the case with the present selection but it is totally possible for them to be the very same. as for a clearly superior weapon i disagree.

With experience between my friends and what ive read of noctis's posts the better weapon between ifrits . garudas seems to be heavily impacted on play style. in the parses and things i refer to in my earlier post i with my ifrits bow consistently would deal 7-8k more damage at the end of the fight than people using garudas. those same ppl using ifrits would close that gap substantially.as for my parses for the most part i never bothered saving them because although a parse does tell you how much dmage you do it doesnt tell you who was using what weapon.

Where noctis states his performance increases using a garudas bow leads me to believe his style of playing bard is different to others and in this style his spine may be superior. this i find truly interesting. though i have ever parsed against noctis to compare results it truly seems to suggest there are in fact multiple ways in which to play a job effectively and in this case there really is no clearly superior weapon and that in my opinion is exactly how it should be. it suggest a true choice in weapons where there is no clearly superior option.

one other point here is that tp in this game is cumulative and a very different system than it was in xi. in xi for example if you earnt 18tp a hit then it took you 6 hits to get 100% the trouble here is that 6x 18 = 108tp and thus when you pop your ws the 8 tp was lost. in xiv however its less impactfull because tp is cumulative and carries. if i earn 450 tp per shot for example then sure it takes 3 shots to break 1000 but when i pop a ws the extra 350 tp stays and thus in 2 shots i again have 1250 tp so can again ws. so whether or not your bow generats 450 tp a shot or 500 doesnt have quite the impact over time that you seem to think it does.

Finally, someone who understands.

Spider Dan seems to be missing a lot of what I'm trying to explain, but ultimately it's a wasted effort on my end. You are more than welcome to go ahead and test your Spine versus your Ifrit's Bow and make up your own mind. I've made up mine based on my own testing and nobody in my LS, and we all parse every endgame content, has disagreed with the numbers I've been putting out since my switch.

You can wait for someone else to do your testing for you and post info, but please don't try to argue against a system while demonstrating a lack of understanding of the details and a lack of personal testing done on the matter.

[Spider-Dan]

A few points you seem to miss.
It is perfectly possible for the highest base damage weapon and highest dps weapon to be the very same weapon. which kind of invalidates your point a little bit.

To exactly the same extent that it also "invalidates" the opposite position (that the current system is fine), sure.

while at present it tends not to be the case with the present selection but it is totally possible for them to be the very same.

...which basically sidesteps the point, from both perspectives. But at the end of the day, higher DPS = better weapon. If the best DPS weapon happens to have the best DMG, great; if not, the best DPS weapon is still best.

With experience between my friends and what ive read of noctis's posts the better weapon between ifrits . garudas seems to be heavily impacted on play style.

Without getting into endless arguments about playstyle, the plain and simple fact is: the closer you get to optimal damage output (read: the less time you spend with unused LS timer), the greater the advantage of Garuda's over Ifrit's. If you are sitting around with unused LS timer for large periods of time, then yeah, I could see how you could win with Ifrit's.

I would also like to mention that for all the same reasons that you mention your parses of Garuda's vs. Ifrit's with your group, I can just as easily cite my own parses of me (using melded Crab+1) vs. everyone else in my group (using Ifrit's) as "proof" that DMG rating was not king, even under the old system. You can't have it both ways; either comparative parses within a group mean something, or they don't.

one other point here is that tp in this game is cumulative and a very different system than it was in xi. in xi for example if you earnt 18tp a hit then it took you 6 hits to get 100% the trouble here is that 6x 18 = 108tp and thus when you pop your ws the 8 tp was lost. in xiv however its less impactfull because tp is cumulative and carries.

That's a fair point, and significantly reduces the impact of "hits to 1000 TP" in this game. Having said that, if you are familiar enough to make that assessment of XI, then surely you agree with my other point, which was that DMG rating was far from king in that game? If the claim is that DMG rating is the only factor when DMG determines WS, that would have been the case in XI. It was not the case.

[Spider-Dan]

Spider Dan seems to be missing a lot of what I'm trying to explain, but ultimately it's a wasted effort on my end. You are more than welcome to go ahead and test your Spine versus your Ifrit's Bow and make up your own mind. I've made up mine based on my own testing and nobody in my LS, and we all parse every endgame content, has disagreed with the numbers I've been putting out since my switch.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what your claim is.

Is it that best-DPS weapons don't always win in the current system? Given that you've repeatedly stated that you're using one of the best DPS weapons in the game, I don't see how you could possibly prove that with your testing.

Is it that best-DMG weapons always won before? Garuda's didn't exist and there wasn't any ARC-centric content that relied on AA (LS) for the majority of damage output.

You can wait for someone else to do your testing for you and post info, but please don't try to argue against a system while demonstrating a lack of understanding of the details and a lack of personal testing done on the matter.

The difference between you and I is that you claim to be backed by testing, yet steadfastly refuse to post any actual data to back you up. This is not proof of any kind.

[NoctisUmbra]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what your claim is.

Is it that best-DPS weapons don't always win in the current system? Given that you've repeatedly stated that you're using one of the best DPS weapons in the game, I don't see how you could possibly prove that with your testing.

Is it that best-DMG weapons always won before? Garuda's didn't exist and there wasn't any ARC-centric content that relied on AA (LS) for the majority of damage output.


The difference between you and I is that you claim to be backed by testing, yet steadfastly refuse to post any actual data to back you up. This is not proof of any kind.

My point is that some people do in fact produce better numbers with Ifrit's Bow apparently. I've heard enough people with both bows say so to give it fair thought. Also I know how much of a difference I make between the 2 bows and its not a great difference.

That being said, I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything, or anyone else for that matter. In fact I have repeatedly told you to test the 2 bows and make up your own mind. That's what I have done. This debate we're having here is just plain old fun for me in a way lol.

The difference between you and I is that you haven't even so much as suggested that you've compared the Spine versus Ifrit's Bow yourself and come to the conclusion that the Spine wins due to DPS, whereas I have tested the two and come to the conclusion that it does even tho it requires more hands-on.

[Spider-Dan]

Also I know how much of a difference I make between the 2 bows and its not a great difference.

[...]

In fact I have repeatedly told you to test the 2 bows and make up your own mind. That's what I have done.

[...]

The difference between you and I is that you haven't even so much as suggested that you've compared the Spine versus Ifrit's Bow yourself and come to the conclusion that the Spine wins due to DPS, whereas I have tested the two and come to the conclusion that it does even tho it requires more hands-on.

The reason why you don't hear me making claims about which bow does what is because I don't have the data to prove it. And without the data, you're just stating your personal opinion, not substantiated fact.

Also: if your own "testing" shows that Garuda's wins (as you just said)... then what, exactly, are you arguing about? The higher DPS bow wins, exactly as I have been saying.

[NoctisUmbra]

The reason why you don't hear me making claims about which bow does what is because I don't have the data to prove it. And without the data, you're just stating your personal opinion, not substantiated fact.

Also: if your own "testing" shows that Garuda's wins (as you just said)... then what, exactly, are you arguing about? The higher DPS bow wins, exactly as I have been saying.

/sigh........

[Lamentor]

Hi, all. Lots of discussion and lots of things that I'm considering and gameplay styles that I'm also considering when playing ARC/BRD. My first big test has been on the Moogle fight. So far I've done about 15 runs with Ifrit's bow and 15 with Verdant shortbow on BRD, and the same amount each on ARC with the same bows, just as a comparison. I also was able to get a Sarnga (though still working on the +1) and am in the middle of testing moogle with this bow.

I'm going to be doing tests on a fight like Garuda as well, but it seems I need a more solid group to win the fight successfully, as well as obtain garuda's spine (I missed the pre 1.22a kills unfortunately).

All of the data so far is compiled, but hasn't been analyzed quite yet. I will say this though; between these 2 bows, from simple parser glances, the results won't be too far apart. I'm expecting to see a bigger difference when I use Garuda's Spine, but that remains to be seen. As we all know, drop rates are pure luck, so I might end up posting the results on these 3 weapons and add garuda spine later (and most likely sarnga +1 within the next week).

[Geo]

Don't you just cast songs and let the real DPSers do the dmgs?