Paladins issues: Parry rate and MP

[Enfarious]

This is more for gameplay purposes. If you make parries fully mitigate an attack that gives the developers an excuse to make the parry rate stupidly low or floor it by an insane amount like it was in FFXI. I'd rather the mitigation threshold be something like between 20%-80% of the damage mitigated when parrying.

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

End of the day, having a shield should not remove parries from anyone, any weapon can be used to deflect an attack, how effective is partly a function of the mass of the weapon, but also being able to position the weapon is a factor. The trade is the same as blocks should be, larger=more mitigation but larger means harder to get up in time so lowered rate.

[Duelle]

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

The possibility of full mitigation is more powerful than you think. That's largely why I'm in favor of parrying only mitigating some of the damage rather than negating it.

End of the day, having a shield should not remove parries from anyone, any weapon can be used to deflect an attack, how effective is partly a function of the mass of the weapon, but also being able to position the weapon is a factor. The trade is the same as blocks should be, larger=more mitigation but larger means harder to get up in time so lowered rate.

I'd rather shields be normalized and avoid the nonsense from FFXI with shield size. What I'd like to see is the devs build on the distinction between PLD/GLA shields and THM/BLM/WHM/CON shields.

[Enfarious]

The possibility of full mitigation is more powerful than you think. That's largely why I'm in favor of parrying only mitigating some of the damage rather than negating it.
I'd rather shields be normalized and avoid the nonsense from FFXI with shield size. What I'd like to see is the devs build on the distinction between PLD/GLA shields and THM/BLM/WHM/CON shields.

That's why I said "partial" parries should happen far more often, "full" parries should be possible but not common, with a larger weapon that can provide more deflection area higher mitigation seems reasonable, but that larger weapon would be slower moving and cause a reduction in rate of parries for the increased mitigation of each.

Seriously, read the whole thing completely. I said exactly what you did.

I think also that what they have with different sized shields providing increased/decreased block rates and decreased/increased damage reduction for smaller/larger shields makes good sense. A smaller shield is less heavy and alot easier to move quickly but the lack of mass means that more of the hit is going to be passed to the wielder, where a 50 lb. tower shield is not moving real fast but it's mass would absorb significantly more of the momentum thus reducing the shock felt by the wielder.

Why make a simpler system that would lead to everyone carrying the exact same shield in the end. What we have now encourages some differences in gearing. Now if you wanted to you could boost your block rate to try to reduce the DoT you take through a hi number of blocks, or you gear to maximize damage reduction through fewer far more potent blocks. Both ways can give the same overall reduction over time but allows people to choose which way to play.

[Duelle]

Seriously, read the whole thing completely. I said exactly what you did.

Not really. You said full parries should still be present in the proposed tanking model for PLD. I am arguing that they should not and parries should just be an additional mitigation-type proc that acts cumulative to block chance, as PLD would already gain plenty from being able to parry in the form of Overpower and Foresight.

Why make a simpler system that would lead to everyone carrying the exact same shield in the end. What we have now encourages some differences in gearing.

You mean aside from that fact that people at the level cap are already all using the same gear for the most part? It would go with the grain rather than against it.

[Enfarious]

Not really. You said full parries should still be present in the proposed tanking model for PLD. I am arguing that they should not and parries should just be an additional mitigation-type proc that acts cumulative to block chance, as PLD would already gain plenty from being able to parry in the form of Overpower and Foresight.

Ok not "exactly" I said partial parries should happen, and full parries should also, but with far less frequency, I also said that they should be impacted by the size/mass of a weapon/shield for both parries and blocks. :When I say should happen I'm talking
20~30% rate for 5~10% reductions
10~20% rate for 10~20% reductions
1~5% rate for 80%+ reductions

where a shield should have more like:
50~60% rate for 20~30% reductions
30~40% rate for 40~50% reductions
20~30% rate for 60~70% reductions
Of course those would be altered by stats/gear/traits/materia but as base rates

You mean aside from that fact that people at the level cap are already all using the same gear for the most part? It would go with the grain rather than against it.

People do use the same gear now, for the most part, but it's a lack of options, there aren't 3 sizes of shields for a 50 PLD that provide the kind of flexibility I'm talking about. Having the one with the highest rate/reduction is currently an option, what I'm looking for is 3 sizes where you CAN'T get both at the highest on a single shield.
Small (think buckler diameter no larger than your wrist to elbow) = very high block rate, low reduction;
Med (typical spartan sized round shield, 2~3x the length of wrist to elbow) = well middle of the road for both;
Large(think kite~tower 1/2~3/4 of your total height)= low block rate, maximum reduction;

If all 3 were available people could choose but they aren't not really, right now there's 1 "best" for everything pretty much. It doesn't encourage individual play styles, but rather the all too typical borg drone play style.

[Duelle]

Ok not "exactly" I said partial parries should happen, and full parries should also, but with far less frequency, I also said that they should be impacted by the size/mass of a weapon/shield for both parries and blocks. :When I say should happen I'm talking
20~30% rate for 5~10% reductions
10~20% rate for 10~20% reductions
1~5% rate for 80%+ reductions

where a shield should have more like:
50~60% rate for 20~30% reductions
30~40% rate for 40~50% reductions
20~30% rate for 60~70% reductions
Of course those would be altered by stats/gear/traits/materia but as base rates

I can understand what you're proposing better, though I am still against a full parry (attack is parried, negating that entire attack round) from occurring. I'll agree to disagree. Mitigation is easier to balance around than the chance of fully avoiding enemy attacks.

People do use the same gear now, for the most part, but it's a lack of options, there aren't 3 sizes of shields for a 50 PLD that provide the kind of flexibility I'm talking about. Having the one with the highest rate/reduction is currently an option, what I'm looking for is 3 sizes where you CAN'T get both at the highest on a single shield.
Small (think buckler diameter no larger than your wrist to elbow) = very high block rate, low reduction;
Med (typical spartan sized round shield, 2~3x the length of wrist to elbow) = well middle of the road for both;
Large(think kite~tower 1/2~3/4 of your total height)= low block rate, maximum reduction;

It works well on paper, but this fell flat on its face in FFXI. You never used small or medium shields unless you were skilling up shield or could just not equip tower/kite type shields. PLDs in XI got their cake and ate it too in the form of Aegis, which basically bypassed the entire shield design.

[Enfarious]

I can understand what you're proposing better, though I am still against a full parry (attack is parried, negating that entire attack round) from occurring. I'll agree to disagree. Mitigation is easier to balance around than the chance of fully avoiding enemy attacks.

Evaded attacks are full mitigation, it doesn't break mechanics unless it's happening entirely too often, if <1% of attacks are 100% parry/block your talking in the course of a 10 min. fight, 600 seconds w/ 3 sec delay 200 AAs, < 2 hits fully mitigated, which is what WAR gets now on ~70% of it's parried attacks 99.99% reductions.
But as you saw, when I talk rates, I don't mean we get 50% rate and 99% reduction across the board.

It works well on paper, but this fell flat on its face in FFXI. You never used small or medium shields unless you were skilling up shield or could just not equip tower/kite type shields. PLDs in XI got their cake and ate it too in the form of Aegis, which basically bypassed the entire shield design.

That's exactly my point though isn't it, IF they make the shields/weapons to support playing different ways. In XI they didn't they broke the whole concept, made a single weapon/shield for every class that was end all be all. They removed options and everyone either joined the collective and wore all the same shit or they got called gimp and were kicked from parties and generally ostracized.
My point there is IF the options are present and I CAN gear jobs in a way that they're EQUALLY able to do the job while wearing different gear than the person standing next to me we get back choice. If there's a lg/med/sm shield that serve a purpose to different play styles and work well @lvlcap, if they go and do the same thing and create 1 shield/armor that is just blatantly better than anything else then of course this all goes out the window and we end up wearing all the same crap again.
XI had alot of game breaking, well not breaking, but player choice removing items. To be the "best" you could be you had to have on "this" gear, Aegis was one of those things. I pray that we don't end up with another of those things, but rather that we get 3+ forms of Aegis-grade shield/armor/weapon to suit multiple playstyles, if someone wants to be a hyper block rate shield tank they shouldn't have to play in the same gear w/ the same stats as the hyper dmg reduction low rate tank. They should both be encouraged by having gear options that are rewarding to both styles, not a single shield that takes it all. This obviously goes for tons of other gear as well, and the reason for not gear swapping in combat. 10k people wandering each server wearing or in search of the "best" gear so we're just a pack of clones again, yeah it makes it easier if you only have to design one sword/shield/axe/helm/etc. for the, end but having 5 of each that can be equally useful to different play styles would allow more variety in player styles and choices.

I'm not saying don't make uber EG gear, just saying make more than 1 of each that are equally uber. Unless the goal is to have everyone in the same thing after a couple years.