Integrity matters

[VanillaWafer]

If people want to be serious about integrity, the solution must be somehow related to the problem.

Like, once again, I feel if SQEX is to be serious about this they need to add server-side automated behavior checking to the server code, as applicable for individual situations, gameplay elements and gameplay situations. So if anything, campaign for this!

That is, if someone sends command B when they press button A and command D when they press button B, whatever, nobody could care any less. To the server this is transparent, they might as well have pressed button A then button B. This doesn't matter, as any modern driver software could do exactly this, how exactly the player does this is irrelevant.
If someone OTOH sends 4 commands in a window where only 3 (given the commands) could have been produced, and does so consistently, then that gets flagged.
If someone moves with absolute pixel-perfect precision or hits their Ninja PvP ult just at the perfect moment it can work, this happens.
If that person does so 126 out of 150 times over 6 days, that gets flagged.
If character coordinates report out of bounds once, that's nothing.
If they report out of bounds consistently despite movement across large distances and/or zones, that gets flagged.
If someone crafts items with just 1 input sent to the server every 10-15 commands that's normal, that's what macros do.
If the person then goes on to do this day and night for 50h+ on end without ever stopping, that gets flagged.

And so on. And so forth.

The solution as always is to create the correct fix for the problem, and in this case, trusting the client software is the wrong fix. We know this from other games. But this is also an MMORPG, so uniquely it is in a position to have an always-present, always-controlled, server to use as the authority.

That's the kind of targeted solution I meant. Identify the specific behavior we're trying to stop, establish what legitimate behavior looks like, and avoid creating collateral problems.

I just don't like the solutions other games have been implementing to solve similar problems, going back to the monkey's paw analogy I made a few pages back, and I'd hate to see something similar happening to this game.

[BigCheez]

Alright, so I have a big suggestion, how about we just stop lying? because that was not what was said here, this was said in response to a specific point listed in the OP of the thread, which I will quote to be very precise:

To which it was pointed out you already can, you just need to watch your language, don't insult anyone, and no "I meant it as a joke" isn't an excuse, and avoid swearing if you can, this is FFXIV, not Hazbin Hotel, that's all you need to do, and you can interact with anyone and everyone with zero fear.

I was referring to this:

They don't care. What they HATE is actually getting in trouble for typing slurs in chat meanwhile knowing that there are people running mods that let them change how their character looks in their own client and not being punished for it. That's all this is.

[Turtledeluxe]

"undesirables"

Let's break down your own arguments because there's lots of fluff here.

"There's some criminals here, so we must destroy that group to prevent more criminals."

No, that's a strawman. The actual point being made, as far as I can tell, is FFXIV explicitly has a unique horny problem because of the kind of game it is and what it looks like. I presented a contradiction that you failed to resolve. If GPose is 17 and up content, should people under 17 be playing this game? It's another case of "well you should be signing terms with a parent or guardian" which is legal, sure. It's also "look the other way" mentality just the same as they do with mod use and that's just the facts. You also failed to address the argument even if sexual content is "99%% legal in game, how far is too far? Your reply seems to be" Its whatever because of genocide cases. " I would argue not only are you incorrect, you're accidentally verging on philosophically advocating for crime here as I will explain below.

"Other MMOs are just as/more horny."

Whataboutism.

I think your last paragraph really gives it away. TC isn't going to successfully get the publisher to implement anti cheat. You know that, I know that. And even if they did, it wouldn't completely stop all illicit activity in the game. What's really going on is you have no way to deflect from the culture in XIV, as its built into the game and the story. You lack proof it does/doesn't produce problematic behavior (pre crime and/or crime). Even if it does, you don't care because it's on the parents, the publisher or the state. Which by the way, that's a perfectly sound position. No one is talking about destroying people, taking away free space, or whatever. Your analogies are inappropriate. It's more like "we have repeated patterns at this specific store, we need to maybe look at improving security at this specific store".

Unfortunately, I still believe there's a clear issue with the game having internal functions that merit a higher age rating than the game itself. That's leaving aside the story and glam have reached a genuine "relax and just do whatever" inflection point in all sorts of ways. This is compounded by the "go ahead and break ToS" mentality of the developer. You can go on and on about how it's not really happening, other games do it, it's on the parents. Let's just make it extremely clear what you and the dev team are really saying. It shouldn't be uncomfortable. There's an environment here that directly invites people of disparate ages to interact with both in game and modified sexual elements, but for you that's not actually happening and if it is, it's ultimately not anyone's problem except someone outside this game. There's just nothing they can do. Valid position but let's be clear.

The "You just want to slurs" argument is also beyond reductive which is why I have not addressed it. The only people acting unhinged enough to merit being accused of hate are people arguing in defense of the game, and I think that is unequivocal. I would also say that even if there is no actual documented arrest that, there is evidence online of crime that has gone undisputed by the perpetrators. I'm not going to bring up who it is. But simply raising this bar to "no arrest has occurred" is an arbitrary metric in my view. In the specific cases I'm thinking about the only issue for me was proving the age of the people involved, and even if you don't prove the age the intent was clearly there.

As far as server side versus client side solutions, there is no perfect solution and for me, it's a pointless discussion. The real discussion I'd prefer to have is about the attitude of the development team and the clear prioritization of profits over what is socially healthy for the game.

[Len_]

I was referring to this:

And as was JUST explained to you, that was said because OP said this

almost all legitimate players eventually find themselves in Mordion Gaol being penalized for hurting somebodies feelings .

and this

I want to be able to interact with others without fear of punishment.

Why double down on pretending to not be able to read?

[Kup]

While it is only one aspect of the issue overall, it may be argued that it is one of the most damning and in need of action. It's certainly a measurably false statement if not just simply feigned ignorance or pure naivety to claim the game has a "horny" culture similar to other games. It did have once, it's long since passed what would be the norm in other games and the cause is almost entirely the modding scene. The crowd it has attracted and mentality it has fostered in a lot of people has absolutely broken down what is reasonable and slid the line of what's normal far past it's point of origin.

It's clear to see if you've been around since before modding was around in the game and clearer if you've been here since the beginning as I have and many others have. 18+ venue/escort/erp PF advertising. Modded nightclubs with people doing very much 18+ modded animations in very 18+ modded outfits, these are far more extreme than you'd see in other games content save for the exception of a handful of games like Second Life for example, which has faced many of the same issues with player to player dealings. These things are absolutely prevalent in the game now. It's the norm, not the exception or at the very best it is as normal as anything else.

I don't want depraved perverts coming up to me or being anywhere near me honestly but I also can avoid it and do so. I am an adult so it's not really an issue that these exist around me. However this game is available and rated as such that underage people play the game. It is not reasonable or justifiable to have adults in the same space as minors openly and even so far as promoting such behaviours or the use of tools that enable it. It is true that there have been many, many incidents regarding people trying to proposition players they know are underage. This happens anywhere in all spaces online however it is naive or dishonest to pretend that the cultures of XIV do not encourage and attract people who are inclined to such malicious behaviours. It's also true that there have been many, many incidents regarding people harassing and stalking other players, the same arguments apply to this point. The same point can be made for a lot of problematic social behaviours.

It's quite odd to downplay it or claim it isn't an issue that should be dealt with, even if just to at least mitigate the problem as much as can be done reasonably.

[BigCheez]

And as was JUST explained to you, that was said because OP said this



and this




Why double down on pretending to not be able to read?

Right, so which of these were you interpreting as "hurling slurs at people" exactly?

[PyurBlue]

That's also a fair position to take, as we know from history that:

Right, anti cheats have their own problems, some of which aren't minor and I'd rather not deal with them. From my own experience those problems could easily eclipse the ones that this thread is centered on. It's also not even a silver bullet. How does anti cheat prevent account piloting for one thing?

It's clear to see if you've been around since before modding was around in the game and clearer if you've been here since the beginning as I have and many others have. 18+ venue/escort/erp PF advertising. Modded nightclubs with people doing very much 18+ modded animations in very 18+ modded outfits, these are far more extreme than you'd see in other games content save for the exception of a handful of games like Second Life for example, which has faced many of the same issues with player to player dealings. These things are absolutely prevalent in the game now. It's the norm, not the exception or at the very best it is as normal as anything else.

As an ARR player I agree that the specific social aspect of the game is more visible now than it was originally. Yet I don't think it's that noticeable. I've visited a few RP venues out of curiosity, got bored, and haven't seen much of them since outside of PF advertising and shouts, neither of which I find problematic.

I don't want depraved perverts coming up to me or being anywhere near me honestly but I also can avoid it and do so. I am an adult so it's not really an issue that these exist around me. However this game is available and rated as such that underage people play the game. It is not reasonable or justifiable to have adults in the same space as minors openly and even so far as promoting such behaviours or the use of tools that enable it. It is true that there have been many, many incidents regarding people trying to proposition players they know are underage. This happens anywhere in all spaces online however it is naive or dishonest to pretend that the cultures of XIV do not encourage and attract people who are inclined to such malicious behaviours. It's also true that there have been many, many incidents regarding people harassing and stalking other players, the same arguments apply to this point. The same point can be made for a lot of problematic social behaviours.

On this subject, the online portions of games are typically not rated because you can't constrain the behavior of other people. The game is Rated T, but that doesn't mean that a teenager can't be exposed to potentially harmful content or interactions and parents need to take that into account.

The targeting of underage people is illegal and shouldn't be tolerated. I'm not convinced on the claim that FF14 encourages that behavior though.

[Anonemoose]

It's unfortunate that many people who are vocal about anti-cheat platforms use those criticisms to shield this game from scrutiny. I used to agree with concerns about anti-cheat software, but over time, I've become more convinced that those arguments were had and lost many years ago. I'm not one of the 10 people who play this game on a Steam Deck so I'm not worried about potential compatibility issues (and spare me the righteous indignation or calls for empathy when most of this thread is filled with people saying "lol i dont care so why should u lmao". Let's also not forget that many anti-cheat platforms do actually work on the Steam Deck, and that anti-cheat software doesn't have to be kernel level). Anybody using Windows, or Microsoft products, or Adobe products, or Google products, or uses any cloud platform, the list of consumer software and products goes on, is having all of their private data hoovered up by government and private corporations anyway. Most other games and platforms have some form of anti-cheat software (some are kernel level, others are not), and are we really supposed to believe that the players of FFXIV are so morally principled that they would never play any other game by virtue of the presence of anticheat software? The truth is that ~99.99% of the FFXIV playerbase already have their systems compromised in much the same manner as they fear any potential anti-cheat implementation in FFXIV could possibly achieve. We really need to stop pretending otherwise.

Even if we removed anti-cheat software from the equation, it doesn't change the fundamental underlying question: why can't Square Enix take a harder stance on cheating and automation? Why are debates about anti-cheat software used as a distraction from the real problem? There are so many things they could do to crack down on cheating that don't require implementing anti-cheat software. For too long, Square Enix have done NOTHING. They have continued to triple down on their lazy game design that encourages automation, they have allowed plugin enabled cheating and automation to go unchecked for so long, and through their moderation and business decisions actively encouraged and enabled a culture that is producing serious criminality. On that latter point particularly, I would not be surprised if this game and Square Enix is subject to some serious scrutiny from regulatory authorities in the near future. People in this thread have claimed that the game will die if they crack down on cheaters and mods. If Square Enix has put themselves into a position where they rely on the subscription money from cheaters and modbeasts to keep the servers on, maybe it's for the best that the game dies.

Ultimately, I just want cheaters punished and integrity restored to the game. It doesn't really matter to me how they go about achieving it, but it is readily apparent that many players also want that objective achieved.

[Alice_Rivers]

I think for the most part Carighan nailed the automation/cheating countermeasures in post 203, combined with an official mod portal, a redesign of content/systems and adjustment of achievements/progression requirements to remove the incentive to begin with the problem would be more or less solved from a service standpoint, then they'd have free rein even within Yoshi-P's determination to permit a wide range of clientside mods (wonder if he's using them himself?) to crack down. As for the degeneracy the community displays on the regular, I'm not convinced there is a cure for that.

Also just because a couple of companies have limited, sandboxed, access to my system and governments too if they really want, doesn't mean I have to make it easier for them or anyone else for that matter or that SE should help them.

[Len_]

Right, so which of these were you interpreting as "hurling slurs at people" exactly?

Do you really think by putting any random phrase in quotes you're gonna trick me into thinking I said it? I find this tactic adorable but, it's not effective.