8.0 speculation

[Cilia]

Moving into actual discussion, what we can say at this point is that the Ascians had some level of fingers in the pie of Alexandria.

I mean... maybe. Halmarut knowing about Ethos doesn't mean the Ascians (as a whole) were necessarily aware of it; Emet-Selch's Ultima Thule monologue suggests he was, but even if that's the case it doesn't mean the Ascians as a group were backing Preservation. As essentially an extension of the Winterers, it's in a very weird place because Robor and Alayla delivered Krile and Ethos to the Source 20 years ago. It seems to be a pet project of Halmarut's or something she decided to look into in the event the "will of the star" position was vacated, which is weird when the Ascians had no reason to believe their plan to fully rejoin Etheirys would fail.

Alexandria does follow the Ascians' MO for rejoining (introduce new, powerful tool people fight over, creating an elemental imbalance) so them having a hand in the Storm Surge makes sense, but Preservation was active before (or at least while) the Storm Surge ruined the Ninth, and it wouldn't make sense for that to be so if they're just a subsidiary of the Winterers (which they seem to be by present accounts) who are apparently acting in accordance with Halmarut's Solstice thesis (which wouldn't be worth worrying about unless the complete rejoining was already kiboshed). It's starting to look a little fuzzy, logically.

Lmao, I did mix this up. However, I'd still level the same criticism.

Your criticism was that Thancred and Urianger were bad judges of character for putting their weight behind Zoraal Ja; they did not, and considering the man they did support (Koana) is a perfectly capable leader and shrewd politician, I really can't agree doing so was an exercise in bad judgment. Was he a bit hasty to try pushing new technology on Tural? Maybe. But despite limited screentime he ultimately turned out to be humble enough to grasp his shortcomings and held down the fort while we went traipsing around Heritage Found, so.

I'm not saying Dawntrail's writing was perfect, just that this exact point has no merit. I agree the writing around the Scions was clunky, but that seems to have been a problem with everyone not named Wuk Lamat (and to a lesser extent Sphene in her triplicate forms).

[Cleretic]

I directly mentioned believability while also noting that they would not partner with Zoraal Ja. My presupposition could be true since they did not, in fact, choose him. As for Koana its not insane, its just still unbelievable. I remember them getting the letter and listening to their interactions and I didn't buy it. Yes, their relationship to Koana is innocuous, tepid, unoffensive, whatever you want to call it. But its so much of those things that its like, anyone could have been his allies and the result would be mostly the same.

Koana actually makes complete sense for Thancred and Urianger to support, not just because he very directly called for Sharlayan help, but because he is, at the outset of the rite of succession, the best option. He's educated, he's got a shrewd political mind, he's allied with a known nation that mostly don't hate, and he's got a plan for his home country; when the other options are two different flavors of budding dictators and a woman that nobody yet takes seriously, he's a great pick not just for the future of Tural as a nation, but for avoiding the massive war that Zoraal Ja was explicitly going to start, and that Bakool Ja Ja was probably gonna do eventually too.

The problems with Koana as a leader instead spring up across the rite, and are a great example of what a campaign for leadership (which the rite of succession basically is) actually does bring out; that Koana's vision for his country isn't actually what his country needs, he's just importing what's worked elsewhere without having done any work to check if it's functional or even wanted in Tural. Koana's journey is one of learning that his homeland isn't the primitive backwater that he thought it was, and that while some people are receptive, rampant modernization both isn't always welcome or what's needed. He's sort of a harmless (and fixable) version of Zoraal Ja and Bakool Ja Ja: he's turning up assuming he already has the answer to every problem, but learns over time that you really need to hear what the question is before giving your answer.

Thancred and Urianger don't get journeys, because they're there to prop up and progress Koana's story, as well as to broadly legitimize him as a 'good guy'; if he didn't have the support of people we know to be allies, he would look like the most Seto Kaiba-ass secondary antagonist around. But Thancred and Urianger also don't need one; Thancred got Shadowbringers and Urianger got Shadowbringers and Endwalker. Not everyone needs an arc all the time, and trying to give everyone an arc is just a recipe for a bloated, aimless mess. (EDIT: And I'd argue does cause problems later on, with the overlapping expertises and arcs of Y'shtola and G'raha meaning neither of them get to do anything.)

[Wildheaven182]

I dont see why we had any interest or stake in the succession of a foreign continent of baby sacrificing savages that cant even grow their own food.
Especially to the point of fighting each other over it after everything the scions have been through together. Im glad that proposed plot point of opposing scions ended up forgotten about.

[Bright-Flower]

I dont see why we had any interest or stake in the succession of a foreign continent of baby sacrificing savages that cant even grow their own food.
Especially to the point of fighting each other over it after everything the scions have been through together. Im glad that proposed plot point of opposing scions ended up forgotten about.

The idea of the scions having a serious schism and seriously fighting one another was never really on the table. But the idea of friendly competition, with different scions having their reasons for backing different candidates, could have led to some fun interactions before they eventually inevitably reconcile and unite again.

Remember that most of the scions also have scholarly backgrounds. They could have had actual interesting discussions on the subject. Instead of the nothing burger we ended up with. It made me want to pull my hair out when the Twins went to the New World ostensibly to learn things to help Garlemald, only for nothing of interesting to happen with that idea all expansion, and then to end with them coming back to Jules to say 'understanding people is good. '

Instead we just get Thancred slightly inconveniencing us in the first dungeon and then nothing else, which was kind of dull. Why bother to tease that story thread at all if it wasn't going to lead to anything?

It reminds me of the whole 'become what you must. Become the warrior of darkness' thing. Obviously the WOL was never going to become a villain but it ended up meaning nothing except a change in terminology and it was actually the blessing of light in the first place that allowed us to fill that role. People are going to be disapointed when a potentially interesting story angle is brought up but then not explored in an interesting way.

[Cleretic]

I dont see why we had any interest or stake in the succession of a foreign continent of baby sacrificing savages that cant even grow their own food.
Especially to the point of fighting each other over it after everything the scions have been through together. Im glad that proposed plot point of opposing scions ended up forgotten about.

...okay that is a CONCERNINGLY bad read of Dawntrail to the point where I'm not sure it's worth refuting, I don't think this is possibly a comment made in good faith. But, here we go.

The reason we (and Thancred and Urianger) turned up is literally because we were asked, but all of the characters involved are broadly humanitarian; they want the best for everyone, and 'everyone' includes the people of this nation that they've never been to.

That nation is not 'baby sacrificing savages' oh my god how did you even GET here. Tural is certainly less technologically advanced than the Eorzean average, but that does not make them lesser people, and certainly not 'savages'; in fact, there's a solid case that Eorzea is more savage than Tural, because Tural's different races are all really friendly to each other, and nobody in Tural has been performing human sacrifices in recent history. Tural's pretty great, they just haven't figured out, like... ocean-faring boats.

The exception is Mamook, but Mamook also are not 'baby sacrificing savages', and aren't really indicative of anything greater. Mamook's just a conservative town that doesn't know how to solve their own problems, and have an old-fashioned outlook doing them more harm than good; they aren't 'sacrificing babies', they have an outlook causing a REALLY haunting infant mortality rate. Not only would basing your entire read on Tural on this reading of Mamook be like me basing my opinion of the entire U.S. on the worst possible reading of Tennessee, Mamook are also just also people who deserve help. They're just a warmer, blue version of Garlemald, and we're also helping Garlemald.


I've also over time just stopped caring about people bringing up that 'the Scions didn't really have conflict' side of things, because... frankly, that was one slide of fanfest hype. It was clearly marketing copy, and I care little about it in Dawntrail in the same way that I care little about the 'become what you must' hinting for Shadowbringers. And I think given context it actually makes more sense that they didn't clash, because the clash between Wuk Lamat and Koana was always pretty tepid and good-natured; both sides agree that Zoraal Ja really had to be stopped, and beyond that the clash is clearly between two figures with mutual respect but different outlooks. It makes complete sense that the Scions never really clashed outside of some good-natured slowdown tactics in Ihuykatumu; there's no ire or animosity here. They're basically just playing for two different teams. Would've been kinda neat to have a 'Thancred and Urianger' boss fight in the middle of that dungeon, but I don't think we needed that, and anything more might've actually detracted from the real focus.

[MikkoAkure]

Not sure if this was an angle anyone else thought of when trying to determine the new jobs from Yoshi-P’s shirt, but I decided to take a look at the Roegadyn dictionary on this forum and Rhitahtyn’s name translates to Right Judge.

It would be neat if the new job was called Judge and was linked to the shirt via the Roegadyn language.

[Cilia]

Not sure if this was an angle anyone else thought of when trying to determine the new jobs from Yoshi-P’s shirt, but I decided to take a look at the Roegadyn dictionary on this forum and Rhitahtyn’s name translates to Right Judge.

It would be neat if the new job was called Judge and was linked to the shirt via the Roegadyn language.

Judge is a very Ivalice-coded Job, and it's already been stated that the new Evercold Jobs are both going to be XIV originals.

Besides which Judge is more of a title than a proper Job; the most iconic examples, XII's Judge Magisters, all wield differing arrays of weapons. Not exactly conducive to a codified combat style. (Would I be stoked if they added Gabranth's moves as a VPR alternate skin or whatever? Yes, I mained him in Dissidia. Still.) If anything I'm expecting it to be Viking-adjacent; an offshoot of the WAR combat style with dual shields or something.

[MikkoAkure]

Judge is a very Ivalice-coded Job, and it's already been stated that the new Evercold Jobs are both going to be XIV originals.

Besides which Judge is more of a title than a proper Job; the most iconic examples, XII's Judge Magisters, all wield differing arrays of weapons. Not exactly conducive to a codified combat style. (Would I be stoked if they added Gabranth's moves as a VPR alternate skin or whatever? Yes, I mained him in Dissidia. Still.) If anything I'm expecting it to be Viking-adjacent; an offshoot of the WAR combat style with dual shields or something.

I thought it was said that the new jobs aren't going to be existing, classic FF jobs and Judge was never a job. This leaves the field wide open for weapon types, though I'm betting on at least one shield since it will share a niche with Paladin. And if the devs wanted to be extra awesome, laws that cause debuffs.

I'm not personally expecting anything viking-adjacent. All new jobs have to start in one of the three starter cities which means that the new job cannot be from the Fourth. Gunbreaker and Dancer had absolutely nothing to do with the First in the other shard-focused expansion we had.

[Cilia]

I thought it was said that the new jobs aren't going to be existing, classic FF jobs and Judge was never a job. This leaves the field wide open for weapon types, though I'm betting on at least one shield since it will share a niche with Paladin. And if the devs wanted to be extra awesome, laws that cause debuffs.

I'm not personally expecting anything viking-adjacent. All new jobs have to start in one of the three starter cities which means that the new job cannot be from the Fourth. Gunbreaker and Dancer had absolutely nothing to do with the First in the other shard-focused expansion we had.

Judge first appeared (as a playable Job, even) in Tactics Advance. It also isn't historically related to shields; XII's iconic Judge Magisters all use combining dual weapons (akin to VPR), though lesser Judges and the original Judgemaster (or Judge Magister) Cid Randell from TA could equip them.

I say Viking (or something adjacent) because while new Jobs necessarily start in one of the starting three city-states, Roegadyn culture (Roegadyn, not Limsan) has been subtly viking-coded for quite a long time. The Sea Wolves could be argued to resemble viking raiders before settling down on Vylbrand, and the Hellsguard (from which the Warrior Job descends in-universe) give off the generally warlike demeanor associated with vikings, on top of WAR having several viking-coded artifact armor sets. Additionally, Rhitahtyn's weapon loadout of choice was two (gun)shields; dual-wielding shields was the optimal way to use Viking in III (or at least the remake). WAR does already have access to some hammer-type weapons (Viking's main offensive equipment) though, and a whole fighting style based on two shields would be a little wonky.

And we could always just have a Blindfrost native show up and teach us whatever it is, if it's related to Roegadyn culture. Since new Jobs necessarily start in one of the three base city-states (after the headache with DRK, MCH, and AST) that's how they go anyway.

[Cleretic]

I don't have any predictions for the tank, but I am willing to predict that the ranged physical job will be Viper's style of 'original' and basically just be Wakka and/or Hope.

Right now I'm more invested in 'oh god I hope they don't ruin healers', but that's unrelated to lore.