Stalking and Harassment, GM/Square Enix Refusal to act

[RaionKansen]

Aside from the GM inconsistency, it's also the fact that a large part of the community likes to say the MMO equivalent of "well, what was she wearing?" every time they hear about someone getting stalked, as if somehow it's ALWAYS the victim's fault that they got targeted, usually while also making some dismissive comment about them being ERPers or modders. (IE: They lowkey hope the person being harassed is breaking the TOS so they'll get punished as much or worse than the stalker.)

At best, the dismissive party are concern-trolling for reactions (because being contradictory gets the hits). At worst, they're trying to bait people into incriminating themselves (even if the person they're subtly accusing is innocent). But none them are actually trying to help anyone with their comments, they're just stirring the pot.

Fault/Blame are the wrong words to use. Its honestly more dismissive than people trying to figure out the actual scenario. You have to take care of yourself and prioritize your own safety. What that means or requires changes drastically depending on what kind of environment you are in.

For example, just because you shouldn't have to be afraid of being robbed or you don't deserve to be robbed, it doesn't mean you leave your front door unlocked because of that ideal. It doesn't mean its their "fault" they got robbed, but it definitely makes it unsurprising that they got robbed. You still prioritize your safety first and foremost. You could do everything to try and prevent it from happening, and it could still happen, but at least you tried to mitigate it as much as possible. Choose wisdom.

A lot of people are trying to help or give advice and some with complaints refuse to listen.

At some point people have to grow up, stop being dramatic, and stop straw-manning behind being a victim. No one is obligated to validate them. Especially if they refuse to disclose information.

[Kaurhz]

Aside from the GM inconsistency, it's also the fact that a large part of the community likes to say the MMO equivalent of "well, what was she wearing?" every time they hear about someone getting stalked, as if somehow it's ALWAYS the victim's fault that they got targeted, usually while also making some dismissive comment about them being ERPers or modders. (IE: They lowkey hope the person being harassed is breaking the TOS so they'll get punished as much or worse than the stalker.)

At best, the dismissive party are concern-trolling for reactions (because being contradictory gets the hits). At worst, they're trying to bait people into incriminating themselves (even if the person they're subtly accusing is innocent). But none them are actually trying to help anyone with their comments, they're just stirring the pot.

Tbh, their inconsistency is two-fold... I've had some situations where I've had good experiences, and then some situations where they've been completely unhelpful, and haven't really looked at the ticket. E.g., they don't really look at things like blacklist evasion, or ban evasion which are the issues I care more since they are tied hand-in had with stalkers.

This thread is wild... I didn't even care about the whole victim blaming until some other poster just come in out of nowhere and tried to make this about use-case scenarios with the whole "We need your autobiography of the situation to determine if you've suffered enough" - Which is ironic seeing as on a principle level (What I am referring to) they actually agree, e.g.,

I think almost everyone is on board with there being severe punishment for harassment/stalking

I am not supporting any given use-case of whether harassment and stalking is or is not blown out of proportion.. I am simply supporting harder moderation for the context of harassment and stalking

I'm just generally in support for more universal measures, e.g., looking at ban or blacklist evasion, as many of us have already seen how unhinged it can get, seeing as we've had literal stalker plugins developed (Which ironically stemmed because of undercut grievances)

I don't even think it's concern-trolling, they are just generally not actually reading the posts before responding, or just reading a single sentence and then day dreaming about the rest.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Tbh, their inconsistency is two-fold... I've had some situations where I've had good experiences, and then some situations where they've been completely unhelpful, and haven't really looked at the ticket. E.g., they don't really look at things like blacklist evasion, or ban evasion which are the issues I care more since they are tied hand-in had with stalkers[…]

I personally see their inconsistencies more due to how easily the offense is proven from their end. Anything that’s visible in-game text, whether it’s emote, chatbox, search info, retainer’s name, or IGN seems easily actionable.

Now, merely following to every zones because reasons? That’s harder to prove & requires digging deeper or manual moderating that they seemed to be allergic to do in ANY capacity. This is the same issue that plagues good amount of reports revolving use of PvP-related plugins that are normally visible by naked eyes e.g., speedhacks & does happen occasionally but for some reason takes forever to punish or sometimes not at all. Why would they? The GMs weren’t there when it happened. They can probably dig deeper but that might cost them more time/resource/money/whatever so they always use the same reply until something like some sensationalist appears elsewhere streaming said third-party tools live to be hit with a ban because… the evidence is presented to them on a silver plate…

EDIT: not acting upon proofs that cannot be proven by GMs or their own moderation team IS a good thing! We wouldn't want any punishment based on false report after all! Stop the red herring right there (not you Kaurhz)! This is why people are requesting for better privacy measures and moderations to better equip players to protect themselves besides "just stop socializing/quit the game/give up chara progression & change chara"!

I’ve seen firsthand of instances where (1)A friend pulled to gaol in less than 30m after writing a bit too nsfw’y search info, and; (2)Another friend being queue sniped in her ranked & casual CC matches where perpetrators (yes, more than one players) tries to get into her matches then either throwing or constantly target her but no one else—reports were sent in for at least A YEAR before my friend eventually stops doing CC altogether. How did we know it’s a targeted stalking? She received a message from discord burner account prior to this (insta block btw). How did they stalk her? Who knows, but from the discord stream we watched said perpetrators would start queueing whenever my friend does, and also backs out when she step out of the queue to ‘test’ them. So if their goal was to push my friend out of CC scene back in post-EW days then Ig congratulations to the stalkers co. I guess? She got the title she wanted but mentioned that’s the last time she’ll do anything CC related and will only stick to FL since then. Occasionally she would find her stalker in the same matches but because FL poses more randomization, it’s easier to ignore for the most part.

[JerryBerrry]

What even is this thread. Someone is getting harassed and a bunch of you come here with deflections and victim blaming and those who stand up for the person being harassed are getting their words twisted and called Karens?? Hello?

It does not matter what they're doing if the person is uncomfortable with it. Someone they have blacklisted is spamming their message book and being around them non stop and that's a problem. You don't get to decide for someone else what is and isn't acceptable, I had someone chase me around because they really liked my character, I blacklisted them and they just made a new character to ask why I did what I did. This was before the changes but still, sometimes people act very nice and friendly and turn out to be total creeps once they feel comfortable enough. You're acting like you've never judged a character wrong in your life.

I've had someone message me after FL because I killed them twice and he was salty enough to tell me to off myself multiple times.

Argue all you want, the fact is, stalking in this game is INCREDIBLY easy and while people can't "physically" harm you, they can bully you enough in many ways to mentally harm you.

If you blacklist someone you shouldn't even SEE Unknown 01. THEY shouldn't be able to see you on their friends list anymore, they should be automatically blocked from your estate forever. They have made efforts to make the game better in regards to privacy and safety, but they've got a long way to go still.



Whether you're joking or not, this is incredibly rude and you should genuinely be ashamed of yourself.



You also say "don't go to venues" when I was a Viera I got a tell in LIMSA when I was just going to the market board from someone asking if I could be their "dom" because my character was "So hot" this behavior is not strictly unique to venues some people are genuinely that unhinged.

You clearly have no idea what kind of psychotic people are out there, but keep living in your bubble, I guess.

You do realize people lie too right? Ever been in high school where girls get bored and make up rumors for attention? There is a reason why reality shows like Love Island & The Kardasians exist.

[JerryBerrry]

No, I am expecting that Square Enix should enforce their own ToS better than what they do when it comes to these issues.

Self-intervention only goes so far.

They do enforce it, thus why you send out info of the amount of people get banned or suspended every couple of weeks on thier website.

[JerryBerrry]

Ironically, so much of this topic would have gone smoother if people had just blocked the posters who keep trying to victim blame and act like stalking/harassment isn't a problem.

It may not get rid of what they're doing (they're going to pop off their opinions regardless if anyone can read them), but said opinions would have remained largely buried without them being quoted and responded to.

Yes because blocking people with a different opinion than you is the solution to life problems

[JerryBerrry]

Frankly, I believe the people who say that SE isn't acting on the stalking and harassment. I believe those who say they have been stalked and harassed and they can't get any movement on their GM tickets, and the stalker still continues to run free. What does a little empathy cost me? Nothing. If I'm wrong? It doesn't impact me in the slightest. I'd rather believe people and potentially look a little silly than NOT believe people and potentially be victim-blaming and dismissing genuine stalking and harassing. People who are victims of stalking have enough trouble getting other people to take them seriously (as is evident in this thread) and they don't need one more.

I have no idea what it's like to be stalked. I hope to never find out. I have heard that it is scary and isolating. I hope the people here never have it spill over into real life. I have heard of stalkers persisting for years without any response from the victim, so I believe it when they say that blacklisting and ignoring doesn't cut it, and that the stalker will find ways around the blacklist (ie, creating new free trial characters, stalking the company guest book, etc).

I guess what I want to say is, to the people experiencing this: I hear you, I believe you. To SE: you can do better. Listen to some of the suggestions made in this thread, and always be trying to improve the experience for victims while making it harder for stalkers. Thank you in advance.

There is a reasony why the US have “innocent until proven guilty”. I’m not going to believe someone just because they said so.

[Kaurhz]

I personally see their inconsistencies more due to how easily the offense is proven from their end. Anything that’s visible in-game text, whether it’s emote, chatbox, search info, retainer’s name, or IGN seems easily actionable.

Now, merely following to every zones because reasons? That’s harder to prove & requires digging deeper or manual moderating that they seemed to be allergic to do in ANY capacity. This is the same issue that plagues good amount of reports revolving use of PvP-related plugins that are normally visible by naked eyes e.g., speedhacks & does happen occasionally but for some reason takes forever to punish or sometimes not at all. Why would they? The GMs weren’t there when it happened. They can probably dig deeper but that might cost them more time/resource/money/whatever so they always use the same reply until something like some sensationalist appears elsewhere streaming said third-party tools live to be hit with a ban because… the evidence is presented to them on a silver plate…

EDIT: not acting upon proofs that cannot be proven by GMs or their own moderation team IS a good thing! We wouldn't want any punishment based on false report after all! Stop the red herring right there (not you Kaurhz)! This is why people are requesting for better privacy measures and moderations to better equip players to protect themselves besides "just stop socializing/quit the game/give up chara progression & change chara"!

I’ve seen firsthand of instances where (1)A friend pulled to gaol in less than 30m after writing a bit too nsfw’y search info, and; (2)Another friend being queue sniped in her ranked & casual CC matches where perpetrators (yes, more than one players) tries to get into her matches then either throwing or constantly target her but no one else—reports were sent in for at least A YEAR before my friend eventually stops doing CC altogether. How did we know it’s a targeted stalking? She received a message from discord burner account prior to this (insta block btw). How did they stalk her? Who knows, but from the discord stream we watched said perpetrators would start queueing whenever my friend does, and also backs out when she step out of the queue to ‘test’ them. So if their goal was to push my friend out of CC scene back in post-EW days then Ig congratulations to the stalkers co. I guess? She got the title she wanted but mentioned that’s the last time she’ll do anything CC related and will only stick to FL since then. Occasionally she would find her stalker in the same matches but because FL poses more randomization, it’s easier to ignore for the most part.

I do agree here, large in part because of how difficult it is to prove such offenses versus other, and yeah for those targeted by it, it's a little more obvious because of that historical reason (Which does add to the frustration).

I do think they do need more resources put into it, simply because when it's just left alone, that's where it typically escalates, even if, for example I block someone ignore them and move on with my day, in all likelihood, regardless of that fact they will think the behavior is OK, and that trend will likely continue, it's the same like of thinking behind "I didn't know this was against ToS, if I knew, I would have acted differently" -- Which frankly most people don't actually look at those.

It's a good thing they don't prematurely ban, i do agree here -- I'm not necessarily advocating for people to be banned for inane reasons (Not saying you specifically are mentioning this, but it seems to be an ongoing trend in some posts), but for example if someone is sanctioned, e.g., for this reason, then if they have alternate accounts with the same payment method and account details, e.g., name etc., then I do think those are avenues to explore, e.g., ban evasion or targeted... I'm not saying it's flawless, but it is better to err on the side of caution when you do have enough correlation, and consider making it cumulative rather than treating it as isolated incidents, especially if there is a clear behavior and pattern of accounts.

They do enforce it, thus why you send out info of the amount of people get banned or suspended every couple of weeks on thier website.

Those statistics are with respect to bot accounts/farms and RMT illicit activity.

[Solowing]

I do agree here, large in part because of how difficult it is to prove such offenses versus other, and yeah for those targeted by it, it's a little more obvious because of that historical reason (Which does add to the frustration).

I do think they do need more resources put into it, simply because when it's just left alone, that's where it typically escalates, even if, for example I block someone ignore them and move on with my day, in all likelihood, regardless of that fact they will think the behavior is OK, and that trend will likely continue, it's the same like of thinking behind "I didn't know this was against ToS, if I knew, I would have acted differently" -- Which frankly most people don't actually look at those.

It's a good thing they don't prematurely ban, i do agree here -- I'm not necessarily advocating for people to be banned for inane reasons (Not saying you specifically are mentioning this, but it seems to be an ongoing trend in some posts), but for example if someone is sanctioned, e.g., for this reason, then if they have alternate accounts with the same payment method and account details, e.g., name etc., then I do think those are avenues to explore, e.g., ban evasion or targeted... I'm not saying it's flawless, but it is better to err on the side of caution when you do have enough correlation, and consider making it cumulative rather than treating it as isolated incidents, especially if there is a clear behavior and pattern of accounts.

That has second order consequences you know.

If a parent is using a joint account to pay for their family subscriptions. And one of them got banned, nobody else would be able to play from that credit card thats under that credit card name

This is big brother stuff. Not so much to erase their presence from you yourself as much as you're trying to erase that person entirely from being here at all.

Thats weaponizing, trying to turn this game into a Corporate Controlled Nanny Panopticon. Nah, I don't wanna have the "Eorzean secret police, and informants", social witch trials in high fantasy. That needs to be a a Among Us style game mode though.

[Ninaran]

GMs can't help because they use mods lol, they all could get punished for using them even though they are the victims. There are entire communities within this game that use specific mods as the basis for their socializing, and it's because of these mods that stalking is such an easy thing to do. For heaven's sake, guys, we had someone create a literal stalker mod last year that caused such a commotion that the devs had to make an official statement.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/515102

Ohhh... I see. That does explain things. Sorry, I'm not used to mods being such a big no-go like they are in this game and I can definitely see mods being important for the (e)RP scene in here. So yeah details would probably be self-incriminating.