Stalking and Harassment, GM/Square Enix Refusal to act

[RaionKansen]

re-read my previous post, it already answered your question.



The problem here is with people that do and say things which are against the ToS, which aren't actioned when realistically they should be. I've even gotten people suspended for inappropriate RP advertisements on the party finder.

Not all stalking and harassment stems from RP or direct communication. I don't even RP in this game. I have been stalked over Ishgard Restoration when it was current content, and when there were leaderboards associated with it. I have had friends stalked over the self-same thing, and I have had friends stalked over PvP, and I have had friends sent non-solicited pictures of their own character (They barely even play, and have never RP'd)

Good for you, but your response here only amounts to "Doesn't happen to me, therefore doesn't exist" - Also, frankly the cause of why people are stalked and what resulted in their being stalked isn't really any of your business lmao.

I just find it generally comedic that some people seem to have an apparent allergic reaction to people asking that they do a better job at enforcing their own ToS.

Alright, lets go through this:

I'm not sure what your first sentence is trying to say. Are you saying that people get reported too late? I've had success every time I've reported someone for breaches in the ToS in regards to the in-game chat.

What did being "stalked" over ishgard restoration look like for you? someone standing next to you? Your anecdote about a friend being stalked in PvP is irrelevant. Also, how is someone sending them non-solicited pictures? Are they in a discord together? It just sounds completely silly. Also you can just block people on discord.

It does exist. Nobody is saying it doesn't exist, its just there's a lot of dishonesty or exaggeration from the people complaining about harassment/stalking.

Did you notice how you didn't really elaborate on anything? Its all still vague.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

A bit derail'y and wordy so HB'd

Are you being told it needs to be tolerated? You are being asked[...]

Honestly? The way people push back so hard against a mere plea for SE/GMs to enforce their own ToS and moderate their own subsciption based game better does comes across as "Just tolerate and stfu"-sentiment from fellow players when they're not even the main target of the plea in this thread. And in the event people do want to claim they 'meant well' by telling ppl to toughen up and stonewall everything, there's literally zero drawback for them should the GMs actually do their jobs better. So why the derailment here?

[...]My emotional wellbeing is in nobody's hands here. But my own. I can't change a player but I can change how I approach a problem.

No one deserves to be harassed by some loser who seeks out of parasocial relations, vut you gotta keep your eyes open for those people too. It's half and half, the game can give you the tools to block these people.But it is also up to you to help yourself as well. Rather than only rely on the games , tools to do it for you. That's where the emotional resilience comes in.

What i'm saying is , if the gyms aren't acting , what can you do to protect your own experience? The agency is now in your hands. And you do have agency. We all do.

(I assume by 'gym' you meant GM).

Sure. In spirit, I agree there should be some degree of mental resilience from player's part. But again, why does that becomes the reason to push back against a plea to moderate their own game better? Let alone the fact that stonewalling does not necessarily helps on every stalking cases where direct contact isn't necessary to cause grief. Ever heard of ranked CC queue snipers groups? or the 'JP Dingo' case? I'm not saying that's what happened to the OP, but more as prime example cases of stalking that just doesn't involve 'bully wants your pixel attention'. Simplifying into "lol it only happen in venue/erp bits/socials"-events (also plain untrue) like how some replies here have expressed in past couple of pages really does no one's benefit.

But anyway, back to topic on hand:

I was FINALLY able to get some time with my FC lead to check this and learn a bit more about the ins and outs of it[...]

That's a relief!

Even when the GMs can't eradicate the bad actors completely, I still hope that they will eventually implement more & better privacy measure. One of the simplest thing that the community had been asking was to have a mutual friendlist removal and preventing person you block from /sea your character to find your locations in-game (also extend this to FT player, they shouldn't be able to use /sea!).

[Kaurhz]

Alright, lets go through this:

I'm not sure what your first sentence is trying to say. Are you saying that people get reported too late? I've had success every time I've reported someone for breaches in the ToS in regards to the in-game chat.

What did being "stalked" over ishgard restoration look like for you? someone standing next to you? Your anecdote about a friend being stalked in PvP is irrelevant. Also, how is someone sending them non-solicited pictures? It just sounds completely silly.

It does exist. Nobody is saying it doesn't exist, its just there's a lot of dishonesty or exaggeration from the people complaining about harassment/stalking.

Do you notice how you didn't really elaborate on anything?

I am saying that there are just as many situations where action isn't taken, when it should be, as to what there is when action is generally taken -- The moderation is very inconsistent around this, just because this has 'worked' for you, it doesn't always work effectively, that's the point.

Personally for me it was just invasive, DMs sent across several characters, mixed comments, e.g., accusation of botting "no life" general harassment etc., - Back then the blacklist was not nearly as effective as it used to be, so I will give kudus here, but none of this precludes an expectation around better service. Very specific details of any given players issue around this isn't really your business. Not sure why you are trying to make it your business either?

As for non-solicited pictures, you wouldn't expect this to be the case, but the content was not-safe-for-work, so yeah it's a different matter entirely. People can be very invasive in the community, and as per my original post:

I think you severely underestimate the lengths with which people will go to harass and stalk people digitally. I also think you severely underestimate at what point someone will willingly stalk another.

I would have thought past experiences on this game with the development of certain plugins to essentially enable stalking would have made this perfectly clear tbh.

I don't take issue with people suggesting to blacklist, ignore, etc., it's a good start, what I take issue with is people taking it like a binary stance, and then using it as a thinly veiled excuse to try and victim-blame or suggesting you're "tossing all agency away" -- When realistically beyond a certain point those measures become ineffective. Especially in a thread where people have essentially said I have already done this

Sure, I don't disagree with dishonesty or exaggeration when it comes to these issues, you also need to bear in mind that stalking can be really ugly when it's left unattended, and even if you stop being their object of attention, it doesn't really stop them moving onto another player.

Again, it really shouldn't be your business either way, some people just want to vent about the service or lack thereof when it comes to support certain issues (from their own experiences) - Which yes, is an issue even if you haven't personally experienced it.

Edit: In any case, I think this debate has ran course, fundamentally, I don't think the details are your business, or anyone's business, irrespective of whether they do or do not support a specific stance of something, to be honest.

[RaionKansen]

I am saying that there are just as many situations where action isn't taken, when it should be, as to what there is when action is generally taken -- The moderation is very inconsistent around this, just because this has 'worked' for you, it doesn't always work effectively, that's the point.

Personally for me it was just invasive, DMs sent across several characters, mixed comments, e.g., accusation of botting "no life" general harassment etc., - Back then the blacklist was not nearly as effective as it used to be, so I will give kudus here, but none of this precludes an expectation around better service. Very specific details of any given players issue around this isn't really your business. Not sure why you are trying to make it your business either?

As for non-solicited pictures, you wouldn't expect this to be the case, but the content was not-safe-for-work, so yeah it's a different matter entirely. People can be very invasive in the community, and as per my original post:

I don't take issue with people suggesting to blacklist, ignore, etc., it's a good start, what I take issue with is people taking it like a binary stance, and then using it as a thinly veiled excuse to try and victim-blame or suggesting you're "tossing all agency away" -- When realistically beyond a certain point those measures become ineffective. Especially in a thread where people have essentially said I have already done this

Sure, I don't disagree with dishonesty or exaggeration when it comes to these issues, you also need to bear in mind that stalking can be really ugly when it's left unattended, and even if you stop being their object of attention, it doesn't really stop them moving onto another player.

Again, it really shouldn't be your business either way, some people just want to vent about the service or lack thereof when it comes to support certain issues (from their own experiences) - Which yes, is an issue even if you haven't personally experienced it.

Alright lets go through these.:

Be the person that takes action.

If someone is messaging you and insulting you, you can report that. Also maybe we're just completely different kinds of people, but some weirdo messaging me and making multiple accounts to do so is so cringe that I wouldn't really be affected by it. Id probably just screenshot it and show it to my friends like "lol look at this psycho" and then report them.

You're not elaborating on the non-solicited pictures. They just DM'd them on Discord? Your friend has no privacy settings on discord? ???

Stalking can be ugly. In the digital world or in real life, but the examples given in FFXIV are always typically petty drama. People have lost their lives due to online stalking leading to actions taken in real life, but people crying wolf isn't going to help bring awareness to serious situations.

You've made it people's business by posting in a public forum AND STILL continue to be vague. The details are important if you're going to act like this is an issue lol

[Kaurhz]

Alright lets go through these.:

Be the person that takes action.

If someone is messaging you and insulting you, you can report that. Also maybe we're just completely different kinds of people, but some weirdo messaging me and making multiple accounts to do so is so cringe that I wouldn't really be affected by it. Id probably just screenshot it and show it to my friends like "lol look at this psycho" and then report them.

You're not elaborating on the non-solicited pictures. They just DM'd them on Discord? Your friend has no privacy settings on discord? ???

Stalking can be ugly. In the digital world or in real life, but the examples given in FFXIV are always typically petty drama. People have lost their lives due to online stalking leading to actions taken in real life, but people crying wolf isn't going to help bring awareness to serious situations.

You've made it people's business by posting in a public forum AND STILL continue to be vague. The details are important if you're going to act like this is an issue lol

This was reported, and blacklisted several times. Each person has their own mechanism for coping with it.. Personally, I'm mostly apathetic to it these days, but I am not going to pretend that it's an adequate solution for people being borderline psychotic.

It was an in-game link. They subsequently fantasia'd because they were that uncomfortable. This is what happens when you just play cognitive ignorance (Not saying you personally are), these people just just continue going from pillar to post being even more deranged with the next person.

I'm glad you can appreciate that fact, then you can probably also appreciate why comments akin to shaming for wanting additional measures to be taken are not exactly the most conducive to this 'serious situation'.

Again, fundamentally I am going to disagree with the specifics being part of peoples business, either contribute to the discussion, or don't. Playing the game of empathy gatekeeping is just as bad as "People crying wolf"

Either they can willingly divulge such information or not... It's not my business (or yours) to play empathy gatekeeping, I'm simply supporting it, because as you say they are very serious situations.

[RaionKansen]

This was reported, and blacklisted several times. Each person has their own mechanism for coping with it.. Personally, I'm mostly apathetic to it these days, but I am not going to pretend that it's an adequate solution for people being borderline psychotic.

It was an in-game link. They subsequently fantasia'd because they were that uncomfortable. This is what happens when you just play cognitive ignorance (Not saying you personally are), these people just just continue going from pillar to post being even more deranged with the next person.

I'm glad you can appreciate that fact, then you can probably also appreciate why comments akin to shaming for wanting additional measures to be taken are not exactly the most conducive to this 'serious situation'.

Again, fundamentally I am going to disagree with the specifics being part of peoples business, either contribute to the discussion, or don't. Playing the game of empathy gatekeeping is just as bad as "People crying wolf"

Either they can willingly divulge such information or not... It's not my business (or yours) to play empathy gatekeeping, I'm simply supporting it, because as you say they are very serious situations.

Empathy is the ability to relate to someone by putting yourself in their situations. Its a great way to help others solve problems and it encourages the person practicing empathy to have compassion for others.

Empathy is impossible without context. Its dangerous to validate people when you have a lack of information. This can lead to enabling someone or wrongfully accusing someone else of something.

If you're looking for sympathy that's fine, but lets at least use the correct words.

I think almost everyone is on board with there being severe punishment for harassment/stalking, but this subject attracts the wrong kind of people on both ends of the spectrum.

[Solowing]

At this point I am more convinced you would rather propose "Maybe you should make a new character" rather than expecting reasonable enforcement of their own ToS.

could you imagine getting ran off your own character. LOL NEVER.

That's given power to people who never had it to start.

[Kaurhz]

Empathy is the ability to relate to someone by putting yourself in their situations. Its a great way to help others solve problems and it encourages the person practicing empathy to have compassion for others.

Empathy is impossible without context. Its dangerous to validate people when you have a lack of information. This can lead to enabling someone or wrongfully accusing someone else of something.

If you're looking for sympathy that's fine, but lets at least use the correct words.

I think almost everyone is on board with there being severe punishment for harassment/stalking, but this subject attracts the wrong kind of people on both ends of the spectrum.

No, it's definitely the correct word, you've just misunderstood what exactly I am saying... I am saying when you try and make intricate details your business, it comes across as empathy gatekeeping... Meaning you're only really coming in to establish your own arbitrary baseline before giving any fundamental respect to the issue itself.. You don't really need to empathize with a specific use-case (Not even seeking it), you only really need fundamentally agree (or disagree) with the context of harassment and stalking requiring more stringent moderation.

Nobody in here prior was even discussing a specific use-case (aside from OP), and just talking about the issue more broadly.

[RedLolly]

At this point I am more convinced you would rather propose "Maybe you should make a new character" rather than expecting reasonable enforcement of their own ToS.

Doing exactly this saved my sanity and gave me safety, so unfortunately it IS an option since that's a measure several of us trying to cut off certain bad parties have done with success.

A relationship falling out and turning ugly isn't something I would expect a GM to have to mediate.

Obviously this isn't the random stalking psychopathy that a few others are concerned about or have unfortunately experienced, but I'm genuinely asking this; how are you going to prove a selection of random new characters over an extended period of time are the same person being a nuisance when tools like VPNs exist? How are you supposed to prevent randoms that just happened to AFK at said house/venue/plaza getting caught up in that?

Also, what is the deal with you guys apparently getting such sexual /tells? Is that just a server culture thing? I've never had it happen and I exclusively play female characters and have since ARR. That's a snap report and a block.

[Astronis]

Also, what is the deal with you guys apparently getting such sexual /tells? Is that just a server culture thing? I've never had it happen and I exclusively play female characters and have since ARR. That's a snap report and a block.

It's probably a combination of things. Some of it may be server, some of it where the players tend to be, what they're more often doing; crafting in Limsa is going to open you up to more weird tells than running roulettes would just because it's so much easier to do, for instance. I never get weird tells on my female alts, but my friends have told me about weird tells they've received (and I'm perfectly happy to dress my cute lizard girl in cute lizard girl clothes, so it's not that!). On the other hand, I've gotten a couple weird tells on my male main, and one person making suggestive emotes at me, and all of them got blocked with a quickness. I don't even respond to that nonsense. That said, from what my friends have told me about the tells they get, playing mainly male characters does seem to be pretty good defense against creepy tells.