Please Reconsider Splitting Main and Off-Tank Roles Based on Job

[Mukuku]

It definitely matters to me that tanks have a strong identity and vary in playstyle, even if that comes with its drawbacks.

We did have more of that. There is a reason the devs moved away from that.

Said that, maybe they will find a way to make it work properly this time. Let's see what they are cooking.

[Mukuku]

That's a fair take, and I apologize. Universally applied that's a solid idea. I kinda like that conceptually too, I will however say that from... ouff, by now nearly 30 years of playing MMORPGs (:scream, I more think it won't work, at least not... not truly.

There is no need to apologize. I also fully understand it's a very difficult concept to pull off if "unique" jobs are also a requirement.

I actually believe it's a "cursed problem" in game design, meaning a problem which puts different fundamental game promises in conflict with each other. Such problems cannot be really "solved" cleanly, they can be only compromised around.

[Sazuzaki]

We did have more of that. There is a reason the devs moved away from that.

Said that, maybe they will find a way to make it work properly this time. Let's see what they are cooking.

My point with the first statement is that many players, me included, have issues with how they moved away from that. Ironically, there's now an imbalance between balance and diversity for a lot of players. There's a reason they are changing it also.

But for sure. I hope they can execute their ideas better.

[Oizen]

I think people are taking this too seriously. If PLD gets to keep Cover, Clemency and Passage I doubt the other tanks are losing anything that they normally have to main tank.
I think their additions just aren't going to focus on main tanking.

[whiskeybravo]

Terrible idea that hasn't really worked any of the other times they've tried because players continually find ways to defy developer expectations/intentions. The only way I could possibly see it working at all is going back to stances with explicit lockouts for counter-attack MT/party support OT abilities. But the way they laid it out seems like a borderline incomprehensible decision. Like, what's the point? Is there even a single good reason?

[Mikey_R]

Like, what's the point? Is there even a single good reason?

The aim is to give the tanks some sort of identity apart from each other. One of the biggest complaints about tanks in recent years is the fact they play too identically, so, by forcing a specific playstyle, in the case of MTs countering, you can then design the rest of the kit around that. Bear in mind, we do know next to nothing about the kit of an OT.

Really, only time will tell if what they envision will work or not, but they will have hopefully learnt some lessons from past mistakes and avoid them here.

[Azurarok]

I'd guess one of the bigger differences between MT and OT would be their boss positioning/kiting ability. PLD excels in it from the sheer amount of ranged GCDs the job's got, I'd imagine the new Tank has similar. A long GCD could also be used to a similar effect.

Also maybe one of the two long defensive cooldowns PLD has may be exclusive to the job while OT gets an extra group mit or dps button

[Carighan]

Also maybe one of the two long defensive cooldowns PLD has may be exclusive to the job while OT gets an extra group mit or dps button

This is what I actually think will happen, yes. MTs have one more personal defensive button, OTs have one more "other" or "group" defensive button. And... that'd be it. At least as far as systemic differences would go.

[whiskeybravo]

The aim is to give the tanks some sort of identity apart from each other. One of the biggest complaints about tanks in recent years is the fact they play too identically, so, by forcing a specific playstyle, in the case of MTs countering, you can then design the rest of the kit around that.

This is.. not a good reason. Mainly being that, outside of having similar defensive cooldown structure the tanks don't actually play identically at all. Nevermind that at least half of that defensive homogenization is due encounter design itself (TBs/raidwide patterns). Pretty delusional justification imo. OK, MT get's counter-attack, what changes for OT? Absolutely nothing except losing the flexibility to efficiently partake in either function.

I'd guess one of the bigger differences between MT and OT would be their boss positioning/kiting ability. PLD excels in it from the sheer amount of ranged GCDs the job's got, I'd imagine the new Tank has similar. A long GCD could also be used to a similar effect.

So MT is going to be responsible for positioning both Red Hot and Deep Blue? Yea, Holy Spirit has 5y range over Tomahawk. So what you mean by "excel" is that it can maintain it's rotation at range - which is arguably unnecessary for a MT whose got the boss stuck to them the whole fight. That's a pretty transient advantage to build a new paradigm around.

This is what I actually think will happen, yes. MTs have one more personal defensive button, OTs have one more "other" or "group" defensive button. And... that'd be it. At least as far as systemic differences would go.

/slowclap

[Carighan]

This is.. not a good reason. Mainly being that, outside of having similar defensive cooldown structure the tanks don't actually play identically at all.

I'm sorry, but you can even have equivalent hotbar setups on all 4 tank classes.They all use the same basic structure, too. They all share:

- The same DR setup with tiny themeing per class. It's all a 40% CD, Rampart, a short-CD and an "extra" CD (this is the one part that actually differs in a meaningful way). The only true outlier here is DRK, and that was only done because SQEX was too afraid to dare buff TBN, so they gave us Oblation instead. And DRK still has the same overall structure, and WAR and PLD share the same number of buttons.
- A 60s cycle that includes a selfbuff and some sort of combo you run down. Uniquely, DRK's 60s cycle includes some extra stuff every second time.
- Their filler has an extension. The specifics differ, but this just means that mentally, you got the 1-2-3 that "feeds" pressing your 4 button, basically.
- Exactly one extra CD to utilize on top of that, usually a 30s CD but DRK has it on 60s due to their 60s cycle mechanism.

They're so similar. They're virtually identical in fact, probably on purpose because it makes balancing them so much easier. More unique identity is in fact desperately needed, even healers are more unique it's just never utilized much for them because of the lack of overall healing focus. My other comment was that I expect them to keep the differences - sadly - absolutely marginal.