Please Reconsider Splitting Main and Off-Tank Roles Based on Job

[Carighan]

This is.. not a good reason. Mainly being that, outside of having similar defensive cooldown structure the tanks don't actually play identically at all.

I'm sorry, but you can even have equivalent hotbar setups on all 4 tank classes.They all use the same basic structure, too. They all share:

- The same DR setup with tiny themeing per class. It's all a 40% CD, Rampart, a short-CD and an "extra" CD (this is the one part that actually differs in a meaningful way). The only true outlier here is DRK, and that was only done because SQEX was too afraid to dare buff TBN, so they gave us Oblation instead. And DRK still has the same overall structure, and WAR and PLD share the same number of buttons.
- A 60s cycle that includes a selfbuff and some sort of combo you run down. Uniquely, DRK's 60s cycle includes some extra stuff every second time.
- Their filler has an extension. The specifics differ, but this just means that mentally, you got the 1-2-3 that "feeds" pressing your 4 button, basically.
- Exactly one extra CD to utilize on top of that, usually a 30s CD but DRK has it on 60s due to their 60s cycle mechanism.

They're so similar. They're virtually identical in fact, probably on purpose because it makes balancing them so much easier. More unique identity is in fact desperately needed, even healers are more unique it's just never utilized much for them because of the lack of overall healing focus. My other comment was that I expect them to keep the differences - sadly - absolutely marginal.

[whiskeybravo]

I'm sorry, but you can even have equivalent hotbar setups on all 4 tank classes.They all use the same basic structure, too. They all share:

Not really. Looking out the airplane window from 5 miles up is not the same view you get on the ground. Yes, you can say WAR/DRK and PLD/GNB are closer in design to each other but in actual play they are still all quite different, particularly at the higher end where the nuances in playstyle are more pronounced. I'm a much better WAR than PLD because I've spent 1000s of hours on WAR and NOT on PLD. Maybe some gifted types could hop around and preform at similar levels, but as far as my experience goes that's pretty rare. A 95% DRK might never be able to be a 95% GNB. Even with "virtually identical hotbars/combo/cd structures". Not without actually putting in the time to figure out it's unique nuances.

This idea that tanks are overly homogenous, just from my perspective, is an overly reductionist idea. And a bad one most of the time because people will just keep "reducing" until it agrees with their argument. It's low-resolution view from 5 miles up. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

[Mikey_R]

This is.. not a good reason. Mainly being that, outside of having similar defensive cooldown structure the tanks don't actually play identically at all. Nevermind that at least half of that defensive homogenization is due encounter design itself (TBs/raidwide patterns). Pretty delusional justification imo. OK, MT get's counter-attack, what changes for OT? Absolutely nothing except losing the flexibility to efficiently partake in either function.

I do agree with you to an extent, for example, defensive capabilities being similar is needed in order to properly create fights, but but there is a case to be made for tanks becoming too similar. A good example is Gunbreaker moving from a unique rotation, where it had different odd and even minutes rotations to one that is the same every minute. However, what I have said is that unique aspects for each tank should be enhanced and highlighted, for example, Paladin is the only tank that can spend an extended time away from an enemy during a burst phase and even moving the ranged attacks within the window without losing any damage.

My hope is, with the removal of the 2 minute meta and the more flexible nature of the jobs we have seen, these more interesting traits can be highlighted better. With Imperator being on a 40 second cooldown and stacking to 2 charges, Paladin has more of a chance to show off that unique aspect of still doing damage at range.

This idea that tanks are overly homogenous, just from my perspective, is an overly reductionist idea. And a bad one most of the time because people will just keep "reducing" until it agrees with their argument. It's low-resolution view from 5 miles up. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

Unfortunately, it is a common sentiment that is spread everywhere, sometimes to the point where the overly broad statement means something completely different to what is actually meant. The big one for me is the all too common, 'all jobs play the same'. As a statement, that is clearly wrong, however, where this statement came from was the fact that every job is designed to fit into the 2 minute meta. This meant the flow of the jobs felt too similar to each other with most bursting every minute and all bursting every 2. You can see how the statement was reduced from the more nuanced take to to where it ended up, the problem is the meaning was lost along the way.

[Carighan]

This idea that tanks are overly homogenous, just from my perspective, is an overly reductionist idea. And a bad one most of the time because people will just keep "reducing" until it agrees with their argument. It's low-resolution view from 5 miles up. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

Fair enough, although I have the exact opposite experience, tanks are the only role where I can readily play all four because of just how carbon-copy they are. I can't even do this with the healers (my main used to be SGE) because while they are also strongly homogenized, their unique aspects are fully unique (as in, they're used in different situations, not equivalent like say the 40% CDs on Tanks are).

But yeah, fair enough.